FAIR - User contributions [en]

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/The Translator

2007-03-25T05:28:30Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Joseph Smith's Character: The Translator}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The Book of Mormon was not translated from the golden plates. According to his scribes the plates were usually either hidden in the woods or covered by a cloth in the room during translation. However, Joseph Smith actually did his translating by looking into a magical peepstone placed into a hat."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Joseph Smith's translation method was not a typical one. Most conventional translations take place with the translator reading the source document and then rendering it in a second language. Joseph, however, translated "by the gift and power of God" ({{s||DC|135|3}}) — he did not know the language on the plates, so simply looking at the plates while attempting to translate them would not have done him any good. (Many LDS artists have portrayed the Prophet translating by staring intently at the open plates, but such depictions are incomplete and do not account for other processes that were involved during different periods of the translation.)

In the beginning of the translation process Joseph used the Urim and Thummim, and later a seerstone (what the video's producers pejoratively call a "magical peepstone"), to translate the record on the plates. We are not certain exactly how the seerstone worked, but it seems to have provided a means for him to focus and eliminate distractions so he could concentrate more fully on the translation given to him by the Holy Spirit.

There are several examples of biblical prophets using physical materials to divine God's will; Joseph Smith's experience fits in very well with theirs.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Joseph Smith and seer stones]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "In 1826, four years before the publication of the Book of Mormon, Joseph was arrested and charged for using his peep stone method to deceive the elderly Josiah Stowell while attempting to locate buried treasure on his farm."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
The video carefully avoids describing the nature and outcome of this legal proceeding. The producers apparently want the viewers to conclude that Joseph was ''found guilty'' in court.

In fact, the appearance before the judge was not a trial, it was a hearing. No verdict was rendered upon Joseph; he was simply charged for court costs and the case was not pursued further. Joseph was never convicted of any crime.

The video also does not tell its viewers that Josiah Stowell testified ''for Joseph'' as a defense witness at this hearing, and did not believe that Joseph had defrauded him at all. Stowell testified of Joseph's claims, "Do I believe it? No, it is not a matter of belief: I positively know it to be true." The charges were brought by Stowell's family members, who appear to have been worried that Josiah would accept Joseph's religious claims. Stowell himself joined the Church founded by Joseph and remained a faithful member to the day of his death.

Would the video's authors condemn Paul because he was brought before many courts because of religious persecution? ({{s||Acts|23|6}}.) Would they condemn Jesus Christ because he would brought before the highest court in Jerusalem and condemned to death?

(''Note'': the video also mentions the Stowell incident of 1826 in the [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Polygamy|polygamy]] section, and does not disclose the facts of the matter there either.)

'''To read more:'''
* [[Joseph_Smith's_1826_glasslooking_trial|History of 1826 court appearance]]
* [[Joseph Smith and money digging]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Joseph Smith boasted the bold claim that the Book of Mormon was the most accurate book in existence. If this book was translated by the gift and power of God we must ask the question why have there been thousands of corrections to the Book of Mormon many of which were related to doctrinal and historical issues?"</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Joseph Smith ''never'' said "the Book of Mormon [is] the most accurate book in existence." The video's producers are putting words in his mouth. He ''did'' say that "the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (''History of the Church'' 4:461.) As the end of his quote clarifies, by "most correct" he meant ''in principle, teaching, and doctrine.''

Contrary to what the video claims, the vast majority of modifications to the Book of Mormon text are minor corrections in spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Joseph Smith himself made a handful of significant modifications to clarify the meaning of the text, but these do not affect the authenticity of the Book of Mormon in any way.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Book of Mormon textual changes]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The Bible tells us that 'All Scripture is given by inspiration of God.' ({{s|2|Timothy|3|16}}) and that 'Prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit' ({{s|2|Peter|1|21}}). In other words, God's Spirit directly inspired the prophets to write the scriptures. Biblical revelations never involved occult rituals or objects."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
The two scriptures the video produces on revelation don't say anything, positive or negative, about the use of physical objects in the revelation process. In fact, there are numerous examples from the scriptures of objects being used to divine the will of God, including the Urim and Thummim ({{s||Numbers|27|21}}; {{s|1|Samuel|28|6}}). By referring to this as "involv[ing] occult rituals and objects," the video's producers are trying to win the argument by limiting the process of God's revelation and placing a negative "spin" on how Joseph received it.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Joseph Smith and the occult]]
|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Initially, Joseph’s witnesses vouched for Joseph and the Golden Plates. But when pressed by the public, Joseph’s witnesses stated that they saw the golden plates through the eyes of faith and never physically saw or handled them."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
This is a false claim.

There are numerous accounts of the witnesses physically seeing, hefting, turning pages, and feeling the engravings on the plates. Martin Harris said he saw them with a "Spiritual eye," but when questioned about it, he clarified his meaning and reaffirmed the physical nature of his seeing the plates. He stated it was as real as his seeing the hand in front of his face. He also complained about having to hold the plates on his lap for an hour and a half and they were heavy.

There were three witnesses that saw the plates, and other artifacts, while being visited by an angel. That was a spiritual experience, and it was couched in spiritual language, but they still saw the plates. In contrast, there were eight witnesses that saw, felt, lifted, inspected and turned the pages of the plates without any of the spiritual trappings. Still other witnesses, other than the official eleven, lifted, moved, felt and leafed through the pages of the plates.

The charge that the Book of Mormon witnesses never claimed to have seen physical plates or only saw them in vision is simply false, and a gross distortion of the historical record.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Book of Mormon witnesses:Spiritual or literal|Book of Mormon witnesses: literal or imaginary?]]
* [[%22shown_to_me_by_a_supernatural_power%22|John Whitmer shown the plates "by a supernatural power"]]
|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[Paul] wrote [in] Galatians chapter one [verse eight]...if somebody comes to you with any other gospel...even if I do it, another person, or an angel from heaven — just like Moroni — he says it is not a real gospel it's a false gospel; let that person be accursed." - Scott Gallatin (Pastor, Calvary Chapel)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Pastor Gallatin expects the viewer to assume that ''his'' version of the gospel is the true one, and that "Mormonism" is the "other gospel."

The Bible contains a test to enable us to test spirits "whether they are of God" ({{s|1|John|4|1}}]). John tells us:

:Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God. ({{s|1|John|4|2-3}}.)

If Moroni or any of the other messengers who appeared to Joseph Smith failed this test we would know they were ministers of Satan. But they don't — they all testified in the strongest words possible that Jesus Christ ''did'' "come in the flesh," that he was the literal, physical Son of God who brought eternal life to all those who believe.

Pastor Gallatin ridicules the Book of Mormon for claiming to be "Another Testament of Jesus Christ," but he completely fails to explain how it is ''not'' exactly that.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Moroni as an angel of Satan]]
* [[Plain and Precious Book of Mormon doctrines]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The Kinderhook Plates which were found authentic and partially translated by Joseph Smith were a hoax."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Joseph Smith did not translate the Kinderhook plates. Claims by Nauvoo residents that he did translate them have been shown to be products of the "rumor mill." Even William Clayton's entry in his diary, which the video quotes at length and erroneously attributes to Joseph Smith, conflicts with other news sources.

In the height of disingenuousness, the video references Dr. Stanley Kimball's research on the plates, and even directly quotes the article he wrote about it for the ''Ensign'', but it omits Dr. Kimball's conclusion:

:''The central issue in the whole question of Joseph Smith's involvement in the Kinderhook plate episode is that the expected "translation" did not appear. And this fact may well explain the characteristic that has made this hoax most interesting — that it was never carried to completion.''
:{{parabreak}}
:''So it is that in the 100-year battle of straw men and straw arguments, Joseph Smith needs no defense — he simply did not fall for the scheme.''<br>
::<small>—Stanley B. Kimball, "Kinderhook Plates Brought to Joseph Smith Appear to Be a Nineteenth-Century Hoax," ''Ensign,'' August 1981, pp. 66–74.{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=b6a8aeca0ea6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}})</small>

'''To read more:'''
* [[Kinderhook Plates]]

|-

|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Search for the Truth DVD:Who Is God?

2007-03-25T05:12:07Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Who Is God?}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;"> Claim: According to Joseph, "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also..." ({{s||D&C|130|22}}) However in John 4:24 we are told "God is Spirit..."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
President Gordon B. Hinckley recently addressed this very old criticism:

:''In the account of the Creation of the earth, "God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" ({{s||Gen|1|26}}).''
:''Could any language be more explicit? Does it demean God, as some would have us believe, that man was created in His express image? Rather, it should stir within the heart of every man and woman a greater appreciation for himself or herself as a son or daughter of God....''
:''I remember the occasion more than 70 years ago when, as a missionary, I was speaking in an open-air meeting in Hyde Park, London. As I was presenting my message, a heckler interrupted to say, "Why don't you stay with the doctrine of the Bible which says in John, 'God is a Spirit'?"''
:''I opened my Bible to the verse he had quoted and read to him the entire verse:''
::''"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth" ({{s||John|4|24}}).''
:''I said, "Of course God is a spirit, and so are you in the combination of spirit and body that makes of you a living being, and so am I."''
:''...Jesus's declaration that God is a spirit no more denies that He has a body than does the statement that I am a spirit while also having a body.''
:''I do not equate my body with His in its refinement, in its capacity, in its beauty and radiance. His is eternal. Mine is mortal. But that only increases my reverence for Him. I worship Him "in spirit and in truth."''
::<small>—Gordon B. Hinckley, "First Presidency Message: In These Three I Believe," ''Ensign'' (July 2006): 2–8.{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=0adce2270ed6c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}</small>

It is interesting to note that some early Christians actually used John 4:24 as a proof text to support the notion that God has a body. While Origen (''De Principiis'', 242 {{link|url=http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/origen122.html}}) didn't approve, he admits "I know that some will attempt to say that, even according to the declaration of our own scriptures, God is a body, because. . .they find it said in the Gospel according to John that 'God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.'. . .Spirit according to them [is] to be regarded as nothing less than a body."

Tertullian (''Against Praxeus'', Chapter 7 {{link|url=http://people.vanderbilt.edu/~james.p.burns/3978_F06/TertullianAgainstPraxeas.html}}) believed "This for certain is He who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, In what form of God? Of course he means in some form, not none. For who will deny that God is a body although God is a spirit? (John 4:24). For spirit has a bodily substance of its own kind, in its own form."

While evangelical scholar Paul Copan {{link|url=http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/article_augustine_copan.html}} views Tertullian's belief in God's corporeality as anti-intellectual and influenced by stoicism, he writes that in Augustine's time "North African Catholics typically believed [in God's corporeality]." Copan indicated that "neo-Platonist Christians in Milan" helped Augustine adopt a belief in an incorporeal God.

The concept of God which Joseph Smith claimed to restore through revelation is clearly a match for the common beliefs of the early Christians—and, that early perspective was later altered and corrupted by philosophical innovations.

'''To read more:'''
*[[God is a Spirit|God is a Spirit]]
*[[Corporeality of God|Corporeality of God]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: God has existed for eternity. But Joseph Smith taught "He was once a man like us, yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did." Dr. Phil Roberts says, "In Mormonism God is simply an exalted man. He was born as a man, he was conceived in a natural way and by adherence to a system of Mormonism in a previous world and a previous life through his good works in accordance with that system he became God."
</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Very little is known about these matters in LDS doctrine, but Dr. Roberts manages to distort what ''is'' known.

There is no official doctrine on the method by which Christ's mortal body was conceived—apart from that which we are told in scripture (see {{s||Matthew|1|}}, {{s||Matthew|1|20}}, and {{s||Luke|1|35}})—despite speculation by some early members. Latter-day Saints do not deny that God has existed for eternity—they believe all intelligence is eternal and uncreated (see {{s||D&C|93|29}}). Latter-day Saints do not accept the late, non-biblical Trinitarian creeds. Thus, they see God the Father and Jesus Christ as separate beings, as described by a "plain reading" of the Bible.

Jesus Christ was:
* born as a mortal
* conceived with a literal, physical body to a literal, physical mother
* lived as a man/mortal
* died
* was resurrected and glorified

Given that Christ was the only one to lead a sinless life, one might agree with Dr. Roberts that "through his good works," He completed His mortal life and was exalted to divine status.

Joseph Smith simply taught that the Father went through the same process as Christ.

Although Christ shared aspects of the mortal experience with us, to argue that He was "simply a man" who became exalted is to distort LDS teaching beyond recognition. Jesus Christ has divine status and exaltation by merit and right. By analogy, we presume—but do not know—that the Father proceeded similarly. Exaltation of all other mortals is through the grace, mercy, and atonement of Christ, following the Father's plan.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Jesus Christ's conception|Conception of Jesus Christ]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...the Mormon teachings about many gods is false." – Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ believe in more than one divine personage. Any Christian who does not embrace the late, non-biblical Trinitarian creeds will understand there to be more than one "God," in the sense of "divine person."

Latter-day Saints and scripture often use the term "God" to denote what may be more properly called "the Godhead." This is the divine unity of love, purpose, and will possessed by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, who are "one God," while remaining distinct divine personages.

While recognizing that more than one being may have divine status, Latter-day Saints reject any attempt to worship any other being, or assume that any other being has greater power than the God of the Bible.

Elder Boyd K. Packer taught:

:''The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him. He is Elohim, the Father. He is God. Of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him.''
::<small>—{{Ensign1|author=Boyd K. Packer|article=The Pattern of Our Parentage|date=November 1984|start=69}} {{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1984.htm/ensign%20november%201984%20.htm/the%20pattern%20of%20our%20parentage.htm?f=templates$fn=document-frame.htm$3.0$q=$x=}}</small>

'''To read more:'''
* [[Godhead and the Trinity]]
* David L. Paulsen, "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph Smith: Defending the Faith" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2004_God_of_Abraham_Isaac_and_Joseph_Smith.html}}
* {{Restoringancientchurch|chapter=3|title=The Doctrine of God and the Nature of Man}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: Paul says in 1 Corinthians 8:4–5 there is only one God, and the rest are simply imaginary (see remarks by Dr. John Whitcomb).</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. McElveen ignores the scriptural context and scholarship in his interpretation. The verses in question read:

:As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
:For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

This is followed by a verse not cited by Mr. McElveen:

:But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. ({{s|1|Corinthians|8|4-6}})

Mr. McElveen would like us to conclude that because idols are mentioned in verse 4, the "gods many, and lords many" mentioned in verse 5 also refer to idols. It is clear, however, that Paul makes the distinction in verse 5. He says that while there are those that are "called gods," it is true, but he clarifies and distinguishes his meaning in two separate ways.

First, Paul follows this statement, referring to those that are called gods, with the words, "whether in heaven or in earth..."—it is unlikely that idols would be found in heaven!

Secondly, Paul acknowledges that "there be gods many, and lords many." Then he brings the point home in the next verse, though it is not cited by Mr. McElveen, since it undermines his interpretation.

Paul says that "to us," however, "there is but one God" and "one Lord." He clarifies his point: We are only to worship one God, not many gods, although they do exist. We only follow one Lord, not many Lords, although they do exist.

This is not merely a Latter-day Saint supposition. Origin (A.D. 185–''ca.''254), head of the Christian Church in Alexandria, wrote:

:''There are some gods of whom God is god, as we hear in the prophecy, "Thank ye the God of gods," and "The God of gods hath spoken, and called the earth." Now God, according to the Gospel, "is not the God of the dead but of the living." ''Those gods, then, are living of whom God is god''. The Apostle, too, writing to the Corinthians, says: "As there are gods many and lords many," and so we have spoken of these gods ''as really existing''. Now there are, besides the gods of whom God is god, certain others.''
::<small>–Origen, "Commentary on John," in Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, eds., ''The Ante-Nicene Fathers'' (1886-1890; reprint, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1978-1981), 10:315. {{ea}}</small>

Thus, Paul distinguishes between two groups of things:
# non-existent gods (idols)
# other divine beings that exist, but are not to be worshipped

Mr. McElveen has similar problems interpreting Old Testament scripture in context, discussed below.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: (cont.) "The Bible says before me there were no gods formed (Isaiah 43:10) neither shall there be after me. That means that all the Mormon teachings about many gods is false. It means there was never a God before this God." - Floyd McElveen.</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. McElveen's interpretation of these passages also ignores much context and Biblical scholarship.

In this portion of Isaiah, Jehovah warned Judah to trust in him alone and not to trust in false gods who had no power to deliver them. The passages portray this as a contest between Jehovah and the gods of other nations.

Consider the passage in {{s||Isaiah|43|10-11}}, where the Lord says

:Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

The context is clear in verse 12, which omitted (as is typical for critics who try to use this proof-text against the Latter-day Saints) from the quotation:

:I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no ''strange god'' among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God. {{Ia}}

"Strange god" refers to a false god, an idol.

Likewise for 44:6, 8 — this passage is followed by extensive discussion of "graven images" ({{s||Isaiah|44|9-17}}).

These and similar passages in Isaiah (e.g. {{s||Isaiah|43|10-11}}; {{s||Isaiah|44|6,8}}; {{s||Isaiah|45|5-6}}; {{s||Isaiah|45|21-22}}; and {{s||Isaiah|46|9-10}}) cannot be called upon to disprove LDS beliefs in separate Gods in the Godhead or human deification (see below).

As Dr. Richard Mouw of Fuller Theological Seminary observed:

: ''Most OT scholars see the early stages of OT thought as henotheistic, i.e., ''the view that there are many Gods but that Jehovah is the supreme deity'' before whom we should place no other. Similarly, Paul in Colossians seems to suggest that there are many powers, but we should not placate them, because everything holds together in Jesus Christ. I think the important thing is that we acknowledge that only the God and father of JC is worthy of our worship and obedience.''
::<small>—AOL on-line discussion, cited [http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Reviews/Whats_with_the_Dudes_at_the_Door.html here]. {{ea}}</small>

In sum, the goal of these verses is to encourage Israel to leave off their idols and worship Jehovah alone. Any other use of them distorts Isaiah's meaning and intent.

'''To read more:'''
* [[%22No God beside me%22|Isaiah: "No God beside me"]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">It also means that Mormon men will never become gods. - Floyd McElveen.</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. McElveen's analysis up to here has been superficial and flawed.

LDS doctrine teaches that believers are deified through the grace of Christ. This is a belief common among ancient and modern Christians, though it applies to both men ''and'' women—Mr. McElveen fails to mention the latter.

As one example among many, the early Christian Irenaeus (A.D. 180) wrote:

:''We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods.''
::<small>—{{ECF1|start=94}}</small>

Non-LDS scholar Ernst W. Benz penned a line that responds well to Mr. McElveen's superficial grasp of Christian theology and history:

:One can think what one wants of this doctrine of progressive deification, but one thing is certain: with this anthropology Joseph Smith is closer to the view of man held by the ancient Church than the precursors of the Augustinian doctrine of original sin.
::<small>—{{FR-17-1-10}}</small>

It would seem the Latter-day Saints are closer than Mr. McElveen may want to admit.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Deification of man|Early Christians on deification]]
* [[Deification of man#Modern Christian exegesis|Modern non-LDS Christians on deification]]
* D. Charles Pyle, "Early Christian Doctrine on Deification" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/1999_Early_Christian_Doctrine_of_Deification.html}}
* {{FR-17-1-10}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: Becoming a God was the lie that the serpent told to Eve in the Garden of Eden. Dave Hunt is quoted saying, "So Mormonism takes the lie of the serpent, it's based on the saying that the lie of the serpent is the truth."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Mr. Hunt might want to read a bit further in his Bible:

:And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
:For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. ({{s||Genesis|3|4-5}}.)

At first glance, it appears Mr. Hunt is right. But if Mr. Hunt had bothered to turn the page in his Bible he would have found that he was spectacularly wrong. After Adam and Eve partake of the forbidden fruit, God declares:

:And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.... ({{s||Genesis|3|22}}.)

So God says the man is become "as one of us." Is Mr. Hunt trying to contradict God?

The serpent did lie, but the lie wasn't what Mr. Hunt claims. The Serpent lied when he said, "Ye shall not surely die." Man did become mortal and God restricted his access to the tree of life.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "God would never condone lying. Yet in the Pearl of Great Price, Abraham is told by God to 'Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live.' (Abraham 2:24) This contradicts what is in the Bible. Why would God give us the Bible for instruction and life-molding and later give us another testimony of Jesus Christ only to contradict each other? Does God make mistakes?"</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This remark betrays an ignorance of extra-Biblical materials, LDS scripture, ''and'' the Bible.

In the ancient ''Genesis Apocryphon'' text, Abraham has the same motives described in the Pearl of Great Price as delivered by Joseph Smith. He tells Sarah that God has given him a dream in which she saves him from being killed. He then tells her:

:[Say to them] of me, 'He is my brother,' and because of you I shall live, and because of your my life shall be saved...'

:And Sarai wept that night on account of my words..."
::<small>—Geza Vermes, ''The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English'' (Penguin Press, 1997), 453–454. ''See also'': ({{link|url=http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Christianity/Other_Books/Dead_Sea_Scrolls/genesis_apocryphon.htm}}.)</small>

How did Joseph produce this authentic ancient detail, with this text not available until 1948?

The perspective offered by the Book of Abraham and the ''Genesis Apocyphon'' does not ''contradict'' the Bible—the Bible simply does not tell us why Abraham and Sarah claimed she was his sister ({{s||Genesis|20|2}}). God expresses no displeasure at their choice, and even speaks to the king in a dream to save Sarah. Given Abraham's nobility of character, it is hard to picture him taking this course if he felt God would disapprove.

During Israel's captivity in Egypt, God blessed the Egyptian midwives' decision to lie to Pharaoh about their failure to murder Hebrew infants (see {{s||Exodus|1|19-20}}.)

However, there is an even more dramatic Biblical example of God commanding deception for the greater good—Moses himself.

The Lord speaks to Moses and says:

:And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey ({{s||Exodus|3|17}})

The Lord announces His intention to liberate the Israelites from slavery. But, in the very next breath, He tells Moses what to tell Pharaoh:

:And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God. ({{s||Exodus|3|18}})

The "public stance" of Moses and the Israelite leaders is to be that they only want to go three days' journey to sacrifice. So, here the Lord is advocating some degree of deception. This extends to even deceiving their Egyptian neighbors:

:And I will give this people favour in the sight of the Egyptians: and it shall come to pass, that, when ye go, ye shall not go empty:
:But every woman shall borrow of her neighbour, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians. ({{s||Exodus|3|21-22}})

Because they are just going to make sacrifices, in the public version, the Israelites are to "borrow" valuable goods from the Egyptians. But, the true intent is clearly spelled out: they are to "spoil" (i.e. "loot") the Egyptians. (See {{s||Exodus|11|2}}, {{s||Exodus|12|35-36}}.)

Anti-Moses authors could have a field day—they could mock Moses' "ethical lapse" here, and insist that he did it all for the money. They could contrast his behavior here with the "thou shalt not covet," "thou shalt not bear false witness," and "thou shalt not steal" commands given later at Sinai, and point out that "borrowing" when you don't ever intend to come back looks a lot like "stealing."

Yet, Moses did exactly what the Lord told him to do, according to the Bible. It is therefore not inconsistent with the Bible for God to have Abraham cloud his relationship with Sarah for their own protection.

This claim by the producers and cast of The DVD regarding deceit serves as a double edged sword against them. The many misrepresentations of LDS beliefs in this video begs the question of whether or not their deceit is sanctioned by God whereas the deceit of Abraham as recorded in the Pearl of Great Price should be condemned.
|-

|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Search for the Truth DVD:Who Is God?

2007-03-25T05:10:41Z

JanAnderson: Inserted phrase and scriptures about Christ's conception

{{DVDHeadingBox|Who Is God?}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;"> Claim: According to Joseph, "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also..." ({{s||D&C|130|22}}) However in John 4:24 we are told "God is Spirit..."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
President Gordon B. Hinckley recently addressed this very old criticism:

:''In the account of the Creation of the earth, "God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" ({{s||Gen|1|26}}).''
:''Could any language be more explicit? Does it demean God, as some would have us believe, that man was created in His express image? Rather, it should stir within the heart of every man and woman a greater appreciation for himself or herself as a son or daughter of God....''
:''I remember the occasion more than 70 years ago when, as a missionary, I was speaking in an open-air meeting in Hyde Park, London. As I was presenting my message, a heckler interrupted to say, "Why don't you stay with the doctrine of the Bible which says in John, 'God is a Spirit'?"''
:''I opened my Bible to the verse he had quoted and read to him the entire verse:''
::''"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth" ({{s||John|4|24}}).''
:''I said, "Of course God is a spirit, and so are you in the combination of spirit and body that makes of you a living being, and so am I."''
:''...Jesus's declaration that God is a spirit no more denies that He has a body than does the statement that I am a spirit while also having a body.''
:''I do not equate my body with His in its refinement, in its capacity, in its beauty and radiance. His is eternal. Mine is mortal. But that only increases my reverence for Him. I worship Him "in spirit and in truth."''
::<small>—Gordon B. Hinckley, "First Presidency Message: In These Three I Believe," ''Ensign'' (July 2006): 2–8.{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=0adce2270ed6c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}</small>

It is interesting to note that some early Christians actually used John 4:24 as a proof text to support the notion that God has a body. While Origen (''De Principiis'', 242 {{link|url=http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/origen122.html}}) didn't approve, he admits "I know that some will attempt to say that, even according to the declaration of our own scriptures, God is a body, because. . .they find it said in the Gospel according to John that 'God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.'. . .Spirit according to them [is] to be regarded as nothing less than a body."

Tertullian (''Against Praxeus'', Chapter 7 {{link|url=http://people.vanderbilt.edu/~james.p.burns/3978_F06/TertullianAgainstPraxeas.html}}) believed "This for certain is He who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, In what form of God? Of course he means in some form, not none. For who will deny that God is a body although God is a spirit? (John 4:24). For spirit has a bodily substance of its own kind, in its own form."

While evangelical scholar Paul Copan {{link|url=http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/article_augustine_copan.html}} views Tertullian's belief in God's corporeality as anti-intellectual and influenced by stoicism, he writes that in Augustine's time "North African Catholics typically believed [in God's corporeality]." Copan indicated that "neo-Platonist Christians in Milan" helped Augustine adopt a belief in an incorporeal God.

The concept of God which Joseph Smith claimed to restore through revelation is clearly a match for the common beliefs of the early Christians—and, that early perspective was later altered and corrupted by philosophical innovations.

'''To read more:'''
*[[God is a Spirit|God is a Spirit]]
*[[Corporeality of God|Corporeality of God]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: God has existed for eternity. But Joseph Smith taught "He was once a man like us, yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did." Dr. Phil Roberts says, "In Mormonism God is simply an exalted man. He was born as a man, he was conceived in a natural way and by adherence to a system of Mormonism in a previous world and a previous life through his good works in accordance with that system he became God."
</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Very little is known about these matters in LDS doctrine, but Dr. Roberts manages to distort what ''is'' known.

There is no official doctrine on the method by which Christ's mortal body was conceived—apart from that which we are told in scripture (see {{s||Matthew|1|}}, {{s||Matthew|1|20}}, and {{s||Luke|1|35}})—despite speculation by some early members. Latter-day Saints do not deny that God has existed for eternity—they believe all intelligence is eternal and uncreated (see {{s||D&C|93|29}}). Latter-day Saints do not accept the late, non-biblical Trinitarian creeds. Thus, they see God the Father and Jesus Christ as separate beings.

Jesus Christ was:
* born as a mortal
* conceived with a literal, physical body to a literal, physical mother
* lived as a man/mortal
* died
* was resurrected and glorified

Given that Christ was the only one to lead a sinless life, one might agree with Dr. Roberts that "through his good works," He completed His mortal life and was exalted to divine status.

Joseph Smith simply taught that the Father went through the same process as Christ.

Although Christ shared aspects of the mortal experience with us, to argue that He was "simply a man" who became exalted is to distort LDS teaching beyond recognition. Jesus Christ has divine status and exaltation by merit and right. By analogy, we presume—but do not know—that the Father proceeded similarly. Exaltation of all other mortals is through the grace, mercy, and atonement of Christ, following the Father's plan.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Jesus Christ's conception|Conception of Jesus Christ]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...the Mormon teachings about many gods is false." – Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ believe in more than one divine personage. Any Christian who does not embrace the late, non-biblical Trinitarian creeds will understand there to be more than one "God," in the sense of "divine person."

Latter-day Saints and scripture often use the term "God" to denote what may be more properly called "the Godhead." This is the divine unity of love, purpose, and will possessed by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, who are "one God," while remaining distinct divine personages.

While recognizing that more than one being may have divine status, Latter-day Saints reject any attempt to worship any other being, or assume that any other being has greater power than the God of the Bible.

Elder Boyd K. Packer taught:

:''The Father is the one true God. This thing is certain: no one will ever ascend above Him; no one will ever replace Him. Nor will anything ever change the relationship that we, His literal offspring, have with Him. He is Elohim, the Father. He is God. Of Him there is only one. We revere our Father and our God; we worship Him.''
::<small>—{{Ensign1|author=Boyd K. Packer|article=The Pattern of Our Parentage|date=November 1984|start=69}} {{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1984.htm/ensign%20november%201984%20.htm/the%20pattern%20of%20our%20parentage.htm?f=templates$fn=document-frame.htm$3.0$q=$x=}}</small>

'''To read more:'''
* [[Godhead and the Trinity]]
* David L. Paulsen, "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph Smith: Defending the Faith" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2004_God_of_Abraham_Isaac_and_Joseph_Smith.html}}
* {{Restoringancientchurch|chapter=3|title=The Doctrine of God and the Nature of Man}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: Paul says in 1 Corinthians 8:4–5 there is only one God, and the rest are simply imaginary (see remarks by Dr. John Whitcomb).</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. McElveen ignores the scriptural context and scholarship in his interpretation. The verses in question read:

:As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
:For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

This is followed by a verse not cited by Mr. McElveen:

:But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. ({{s|1|Corinthians|8|4-6}})

Mr. McElveen would like us to conclude that because idols are mentioned in verse 4, the "gods many, and lords many" mentioned in verse 5 also refer to idols. It is clear, however, that Paul makes the distinction in verse 5. He says that while there are those that are "called gods," it is true, but he clarifies and distinguishes his meaning in two separate ways.

First, Paul follows this statement, referring to those that are called gods, with the words, "whether in heaven or in earth..."—it is unlikely that idols would be found in heaven!

Secondly, Paul acknowledges that "there be gods many, and lords many." Then he brings the point home in the next verse, though it is not cited by Mr. McElveen, since it undermines his interpretation.

Paul says that "to us," however, "there is but one God" and "one Lord." He clarifies his point: We are only to worship one God, not many gods, although they do exist. We only follow one Lord, not many Lords, although they do exist.

This is not merely a Latter-day Saint supposition. Origin (A.D. 185–''ca.''254), head of the Christian Church in Alexandria, wrote:

:''There are some gods of whom God is god, as we hear in the prophecy, "Thank ye the God of gods," and "The God of gods hath spoken, and called the earth." Now God, according to the Gospel, "is not the God of the dead but of the living." ''Those gods, then, are living of whom God is god''. The Apostle, too, writing to the Corinthians, says: "As there are gods many and lords many," and so we have spoken of these gods ''as really existing''. Now there are, besides the gods of whom God is god, certain others.''
::<small>–Origen, "Commentary on John," in Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, eds., ''The Ante-Nicene Fathers'' (1886-1890; reprint, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1978-1981), 10:315. {{ea}}</small>

Thus, Paul distinguishes between two groups of things:
# non-existent gods (idols)
# other divine beings that exist, but are not to be worshipped

Mr. McElveen has similar problems interpreting Old Testament scripture in context, discussed below.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: (cont.) "The Bible says before me there were no gods formed (Isaiah 43:10) neither shall there be after me. That means that all the Mormon teachings about many gods is false. It means there was never a God before this God." - Floyd McElveen.</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. McElveen's interpretation of these passages also ignores much context and Biblical scholarship.

In this portion of Isaiah, Jehovah warned Judah to trust in him alone and not to trust in false gods who had no power to deliver them. The passages portray this as a contest between Jehovah and the gods of other nations.

Consider the passage in {{s||Isaiah|43|10-11}}, where the Lord says

:Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

The context is clear in verse 12, which omitted (as is typical for critics who try to use this proof-text against the Latter-day Saints) from the quotation:

:I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no ''strange god'' among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God. {{Ia}}

"Strange god" refers to a false god, an idol.

Likewise for 44:6, 8 — this passage is followed by extensive discussion of "graven images" ({{s||Isaiah|44|9-17}}).

These and similar passages in Isaiah (e.g. {{s||Isaiah|43|10-11}}; {{s||Isaiah|44|6,8}}; {{s||Isaiah|45|5-6}}; {{s||Isaiah|45|21-22}}; and {{s||Isaiah|46|9-10}}) cannot be called upon to disprove LDS beliefs in separate Gods in the Godhead or human deification (see below).

As Dr. Richard Mouw of Fuller Theological Seminary observed:

: ''Most OT scholars see the early stages of OT thought as henotheistic, i.e., ''the view that there are many Gods but that Jehovah is the supreme deity'' before whom we should place no other. Similarly, Paul in Colossians seems to suggest that there are many powers, but we should not placate them, because everything holds together in Jesus Christ. I think the important thing is that we acknowledge that only the God and father of JC is worthy of our worship and obedience.''
::<small>—AOL on-line discussion, cited [http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Reviews/Whats_with_the_Dudes_at_the_Door.html here]. {{ea}}</small>

In sum, the goal of these verses is to encourage Israel to leave off their idols and worship Jehovah alone. Any other use of them distorts Isaiah's meaning and intent.

'''To read more:'''
* [[%22No God beside me%22|Isaiah: "No God beside me"]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">It also means that Mormon men will never become gods. - Floyd McElveen.</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. McElveen's analysis up to here has been superficial and flawed.

LDS doctrine teaches that believers are deified through the grace of Christ. This is a belief common among ancient and modern Christians, though it applies to both men ''and'' women—Mr. McElveen fails to mention the latter.

As one example among many, the early Christian Irenaeus (A.D. 180) wrote:

:''We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods.''
::<small>—{{ECF1|start=94}}</small>

Non-LDS scholar Ernst W. Benz penned a line that responds well to Mr. McElveen's superficial grasp of Christian theology and history:

:One can think what one wants of this doctrine of progressive deification, but one thing is certain: with this anthropology Joseph Smith is closer to the view of man held by the ancient Church than the precursors of the Augustinian doctrine of original sin.
::<small>—{{FR-17-1-10}}</small>

It would seem the Latter-day Saints are closer than Mr. McElveen may want to admit.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Deification of man|Early Christians on deification]]
* [[Deification of man#Modern Christian exegesis|Modern non-LDS Christians on deification]]
* D. Charles Pyle, "Early Christian Doctrine on Deification" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/1999_Early_Christian_Doctrine_of_Deification.html}}
* {{FR-17-1-10}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: Becoming a God was the lie that the serpent told to Eve in the Garden of Eden. Dave Hunt is quoted saying, "So Mormonism takes the lie of the serpent, it's based on the saying that the lie of the serpent is the truth."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Mr. Hunt might want to read a bit further in his Bible:

:And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
:For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. ({{s||Genesis|3|4-5}}.)

At first glance, it appears Mr. Hunt is right. But if Mr. Hunt had bothered to turn the page in his Bible he would have found that he was spectacularly wrong. After Adam and Eve partake of the forbidden fruit, God declares:

:And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.... ({{s||Genesis|3|22}}.)

So God says the man is become "as one of us." Is Mr. Hunt trying to contradict God?

The serpent did lie, but the lie wasn't what Mr. Hunt claims. The Serpent lied when he said, "Ye shall not surely die." Man did become mortal and God restricted his access to the tree of life.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "God would never condone lying. Yet in the Pearl of Great Price, Abraham is told by God to 'Let her say unto the Egyptians, she is thy sister, and thy soul shall live.' (Abraham 2:24) This contradicts what is in the Bible. Why would God give us the Bible for instruction and life-molding and later give us another testimony of Jesus Christ only to contradict each other? Does God make mistakes?"</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This remark betrays an ignorance of extra-Biblical materials, LDS scripture, ''and'' the Bible.

In the ancient ''Genesis Apocryphon'' text, Abraham has the same motives described in the Pearl of Great Price as delivered by Joseph Smith. He tells Sarah that God has given him a dream in which she saves him from being killed. He then tells her:

:[Say to them] of me, 'He is my brother,' and because of you I shall live, and because of your my life shall be saved...'

:And Sarai wept that night on account of my words..."
::<small>—Geza Vermes, ''The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English'' (Penguin Press, 1997), 453–454. ''See also'': ({{link|url=http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Christianity/Other_Books/Dead_Sea_Scrolls/genesis_apocryphon.htm}}.)</small>

How did Joseph produce this authentic ancient detail, with this text not available until 1948?

The perspective offered by the Book of Abraham and the ''Genesis Apocyphon'' does not ''contradict'' the Bible—the Bible simply does not tell us why Abraham and Sarah claimed she was his sister ({{s||Genesis|20|2}}). God expresses no displeasure at their choice, and even speaks to the king in a dream to save Sarah. Given Abraham's nobility of character, it is hard to picture him taking this course if he felt God would disapprove.

During Israel's captivity in Egypt, God blessed the Egyptian midwives' decision to lie to Pharaoh about their failure to murder Hebrew infants (see {{s||Exodus|1|19-20}}.)

However, there is an even more dramatic Biblical example of God commanding deception for the greater good—Moses himself.

The Lord speaks to Moses and says:

:And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey ({{s||Exodus|3|17}})

The Lord announces His intention to liberate the Israelites from slavery. But, in the very next breath, He tells Moses what to tell Pharaoh:

:And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God. ({{s||Exodus|3|18}})

The "public stance" of Moses and the Israelite leaders is to be that they only want to go three days' journey to sacrifice. So, here the Lord is advocating some degree of deception. This extends to even deceiving their Egyptian neighbors:

:And I will give this people favour in the sight of the Egyptians: and it shall come to pass, that, when ye go, ye shall not go empty:
:But every woman shall borrow of her neighbour, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians. ({{s||Exodus|3|21-22}})

Because they are just going to make sacrifices, in the public version, the Israelites are to "borrow" valuable goods from the Egyptians. But, the true intent is clearly spelled out: they are to "spoil" (i.e. "loot") the Egyptians. (See {{s||Exodus|11|2}}, {{s||Exodus|12|35-36}}.)

Anti-Moses authors could have a field day—they could mock Moses' "ethical lapse" here, and insist that he did it all for the money. They could contrast his behavior here with the "thou shalt not covet," "thou shalt not bear false witness," and "thou shalt not steal" commands given later at Sinai, and point out that "borrowing" when you don't ever intend to come back looks a lot like "stealing."

Yet, Moses did exactly what the Lord told him to do, according to the Bible. It is therefore not inconsistent with the Bible for God to have Abraham cloud his relationship with Sarah for their own protection.

This claim by the producers and cast of The DVD regarding deceit serves as a double edged sword against them. The many misrepresentations of LDS beliefs in this video begs the question of whether or not their deceit is sanctioned by God whereas the deceit of Abraham as recorded in the Pearl of Great Price should be condemned.
|-

|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Search for the Truth DVD:Who Is Jesus?

2007-03-25T04:58:15Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Who Is Jesus?}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">What do the Latter-day Saints believe about Jesus Christ?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The video avoided quoting any of the many LDS statements about Jesus Christ which would allow the LDS and their scriptures to speak for themselves. Instead, the DVD focused on a few ideas out of context, while assuming that the non-biblical (extra-biblical) creeds—to which the producers and contributors apparently subscribe—are the proper (and only) interpretation of the Bible.

The LDS believe that Jesus Christ's role is central to our Heavenly Father's plan. Christ is unique in several respects from all other beings and spirit children of God:
* Jesus is God (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/1#2 John 1:1-2], [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/1/6#6 Hebrews 1:6], [http://scriptures.lds.org/1_ne/11/16#26 1 Nephi 11:16–26], [http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/76/13#13 D&C 76:13]).
* Jesus was and is perfect (sinless) (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/4/15 Hebrews 4:15]),
* Jesus is the Creator (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/3#3 John 1:3], [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/1/1#6 Hebrews 1:1–6], [http://scriptures.lds.org/mosiah/3/3#3 Mosiah 3:3], [http://scriptures.lds.org/hel/14/12#12 Helaman 14:12], [http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/2/1#1 Moses 2:1]).
* Jesus obeyed the Father in all things (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/1/11#11 3 Nephi 11:11]).
* Jesus was chosen and foreordained to be the Redeemer (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/isa/43/11#11 Isaiah 43:11], [http://scriptures.lds.org/mosiah/13/28#34 Mosiah 13:28–34], [http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/9/15#15 3 Nephi 9:15], [http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/4/2#2 Moses 4:2]).
* Jesus is the Mediator between God and humanity (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/14/6#6 John 14:6], [http://scriptures.lds.org/1_tim/2/5#5 1 Timothy 2:5], [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/8/5#5 Hebrews 8:5], [http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/2/28#28 2 Nephi 2:28], [http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/76/69#69 D&C 76:69]).
* Jesus was "the Only Begotten"—only He, of all God's children, had a physical inheritance in His body from God the Father. (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/14#14 John 1:14], [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/3/16#16 John 3:16], [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/14/3#3 John 14:3], [http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/4/11#11 Jacob 4:11], [http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/12/33#34 Alma 12:33–34]).
'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Twelve Apostles|article=The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints|date=December 2004|start=4}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2004.htm/ensign%20december%202004.htm/the%20living%20christ%20the%20testimony%20of%20the%20apostles%20the%20church%20of%20jesus%20christ%20of%20latterday%20saints.htm}}
* [[Worship_different_Jesus|Do LDS worship a 'different' Jesus?]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "There can be no greater contrast than the Jesus of the Bible with the Jesus of Mormonism." – Dr. Phil Roberts (President, Midwestern Bible Theological Seminary)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints find such a characterization misleading and offensive because it implies that LDS believe Joseph Smith is comparable to Jesus. LDS believe Jesus is the Son of God as described in the New Testament and ''worship'' Him as such. LDS do ''not'' believe that Joseph Smith is God. We don't ''worship'' Joseph Smith just as other Christians don't ''worship'' Martin Luther. LDS ''revere'' Joseph Smith and hold him in high esteem, just as many Protestants do of Martin Luther and Catholics do the Pope.

More properly, there is a great contrast between the non-biblical ''creeds'' describing the nature of God and the scriptural record of God in the Bible as understood by the Latter-day Saints. The Saints have no quarrel with the Bible—they love and revere it as part of God's word to His children. They do not accept, however, the later additions of the creeds.

Just because the Saints' interpretation of some biblical passages does not match those of some other denominations does not mean that Mormons are not Christian or that they do not worship Jesus of the Bible. Were this the case, there could be no Christians, since every Christian faith differs from some other group in the interpretation of some Bible passages.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Worship_different_Jesus|Do Latter-day Saints worship a "different Jesus"?]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "In the Bible, and according to history as we believe and the actual work of Jesus Christ, He was God in the flesh, He was eternal with God, coequal uncreated." – Dr. Phil Roberts (President, Midwestern Bible Theological Seminary)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
This claim illustrates the source of the critics' attack on the Church, which has nothing to do with the Bible itself. Dr. Roberts and the video's producers are ''creedal Christians.'' That is, they accept beliefs which were formulated by councils of men hundreds of years after Christ's resurrection in an attempt to define the nature of God and Christ. The Latter-day Saints do not accept many of these creeds because they:
# are not found in the Holy Bible or other scripture
# were not taught or believed by Jesus or the early Christians
# were developed only with the addition of non-scriptural ideas and concepts (e.g., Greek philosophy)

Dr. Roberts believes that his creedal beliefs are scriptural (based on a particular interpretation of Bible verses), thus his appeal to later Christian history as authority in the above statement. The Latter-day Saints and many Christian scholars of religious history believe otherwise—they realize and admit that non-scriptural ideas had to be added to the Bible to formulate the creeds.

Latter-day Saints accept the witness that Jesus was God in the flesh and eternal with God, for this is the testimony of scripture. They do not accept the later additions of being "coequal uncreated," (though they understand 'uncreated' in a different sense than the creeds, as mentioned below).

'''To read more:'''
* [[Godhead and the Trinity]]: History of the creeds by non-LDS Christian authors and historians
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Nothing existed prior to the creator, which is Christ.... Jesus created all things and nothing existed prior to that creation." – John McCartney (Pastor, First Baptist Church of Tooele, Utah)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Pastor McCartney demonstrates that, once again, the video's quarrel is not that the Latter-day Saints do not believe the scriptures, but with the Latter-day Saints' reluctance to accept the ''creedal interpretation'' of scripture.

Pastor McCarney advocates the doctrine of creation out of nothing—sometimes called ''creatio ex nihilo.'' This doctrine holds that only God existed, and He created all other beings and things out of absolute nothiness.

This doctrine is not biblical, but draws again on the influence of Greek thought in later Christian centuries—the Latter-day Saints therefore do not accept biblical interpretations which rely on later creeds.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Creatio ex nihilo|Creation out of nothing]]: A non-biblical doctrine from the second century A.D.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: Mormons don't believe Jesus was the creator of all things.</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As noted above, this claim arises out of a commitment to the creed of ''creatio ex nihilo,'' not the Bible itself.

The LDS believe that some things simply cannot be created—"intelligence" and matter (see [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/93/29#29 D&C 93:29]). Thus, the LDS believe that God created all things ''that required'' creation, through Jesus Christ.

Under the ''ex nihilo'' creed, God cannot be created, so He exists necessarily. Creedal Christians see no contradiction in saying God created all things, even when He did not create Himself. Likewise, LDS Christians see no contradiction in claiming Jesus created all things, even if there are some things (like God) which are eternal and require no creation.

Latter-day Saints believe that, through the power of the Father, Christ is the creative agent behind everything that was, is, or will be created.

'''To read more:'''
* [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/j/31 Jesus Christ, Creator]: LDS scriptures topical guide.
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Does Colossians 1:17 teach that Jesus created all things and even the angels (including Satan) out of nothing?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Creedal Christians believe in the post-Biblical doctrine of ''[[creatio ex nihilo]]'' (creation out of nothing). Because this is how they understand the idea of creation, they read it into these verses.

Latter-day Saints have no quarrel with the doctrine taught in Colossians. They emphatically believe that the Father created all things by Jesus Christ. The video is misleading to suggest otherwise.

As one author observed, the Greek text does not teach ''ex nihilo,'' but creation out of pre-existing raw materials, since the verb ''ktidzo'' "carried an architectural connotation...as in 'to build' or 'establish' a city.... Thus, the verb presupposes the presence of already existing material."(Griffith, 72 {{wikilink|url=Creation_in_Colossians_1:16}}.)

One must not overlook {{s|2|Corinthians|4|18}}, which states that "the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal"—suggesting that aspects of the created "unseen world" are ''eternal'', despite the exercise of God's creative power upon them.

LDS doctrine sees creation as an act of organizing pre-existing, eternal matter and intelligence. (See {{s||DC|93|29}}, {{s||DC|131|7}}.)

Thus, Jesus certainly participated in the creation of all created things—but He worked with preexisting chaotic materials. The angelic ranks of "thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers" were also created by Christ, for these beings did not assume their angelic status or form without divine creative power, even though some aspect of their "intelligence" pre-dated God's creative acts in their behalf.

Each of us, along with Jesus and Lucifer, are children of our Father in Heaven. Our personality and character were developed during the long pre-mortal existence. During this time the Savior, as the first born of the Father, developed the attributes that allowed God the Father to trust Jesus with the creation of all things that would be created and to assume the divine role of The Son. With that same process Lucifer developed the attributes that led him into sin and rebellion.

The difference between Jesus and Lucifer is so great that we cannot fully understand it. The rest of God's children are somewhere in between these two extremes. Because of Jesus' role in the creation Satan's premortal powers and status were dependent upon the creative power and authority of God, exercised through Jesus Christ.

The difference between those who followed the Father and those who followed Lucifer is in part dependent upon the eternal aspect of each individual. This may help to explain Satan's antipathy toward Jesus, and his desire to usurp the power and authority of God possessed by Christ (see {{s||Moses|4|1|3}}).

The claim, then, that Jesus and Satan were merely peers, misunderstands and misrepresents the LDS doctrine of creation, and Jesus' pre-eminent role in it.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Creation in Colossians 1:16]]
*{{Ensign|author=Donald Q. Cannon, Larry E. Dahl, and John W. Welch|article=The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation|vol=19|start=27|end=33|date=January 1989}} {{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1989.htm/ensign%20january%201989.htm/the%20restoration%20of%20major%20doctrines%20through%20joseph%20smith%20the%20godhead%20mankind%20and%20the%20creation.htm}}
* {{Restoringancientchurch |title=The Doctrine of God and the Nature of Man:Creatio Ex Nihilo|chapter=3}}
*{{BYUS|author=Keith Norman|article=Ex Nihilo: The Development of the Doctrines of God and Creation in Early Christianity|vol=17|num=3|date=1977|start=291|end=318}} {{link|url=http://byustudies.byu.edu/Products/MoreInfoPage/MoreInfo.aspx?Type=7&ProdID=855}}
*{{FR-11-2-3}}
*{{FR-17-2-8}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">What are the implications of claiming that Jesus/God created Satan out of nothing?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The DVD opines that "there is an infinite chasm between Jesus Christ, creator God, and Satan, creature who has sinned."

This conclusion reflects the creedal conviction that God is totally 'other'—i.e., He is completely different in all aspects from His creations, including humanity. However, the video does not explore the implications of the claim that God created Satan out of nothing. If God did, as claimed, create Satan ''ex nihilo,'' then God could have created Satan differently. Satan (and all mankind) could have been created with a nature that would not predispose him to commit sin.

If God could have created Satan (or a mortal) in a different way, then in some sense God is responsible for their evil natures. The sins and evils committed by fallen beings become ''God's'' fault, because He could have made things differently, but did not. How is it then just to judge or punish a sinner for sin if the sinful nature was created by God out of nothing?

This is a major philosophical problem for those who embrace ''creatio ex nihilo.'' The LDS view, in which God creates by ''organizing'' eternal matter and intelligence, does not have these problems. Satan sinned because of his eternal nature: he made free choices based on who he has always been. Likewise, mortals cannot blame God for their sins, because their core nature was not created by God.

A Latter-day Saint Christian would argue that it does not lessen God for Him to allow other beings to make free choices and receive the consequences. Rather, they believe that there is a "vast gulf" between the loving God of the Bible and a belief that God wilfully creates degenerate, fallen, and sinful beings and then punishes them for natures which He gave them.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Satan's potential role in God's plan misrepresented</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The video does not accurately portray all of the LDS ideas regarding the "council in heaven" which are necessary for full understanding. The video correctly notes that two spirit children of God (Jesus and Satan) offered to play a role in God's plan for human happiness. However, it neglects to mention that Satan's offer was not welcome or anticipated. Satan's plan, and his offer to implement it, was never consistent with God the Father's plan of salvation, and if accepted it would have meant the end of any future opportunities for His children. Therefore, God would never have countenanced the implementation of
Satan's offer. God says that Jesus' role was determined from the beginning: "my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and
the glory be thine forever" ({{s||Moses|4|2}}).

'''To read more:'''
* [[Jesus_Christ_is_the_brother_of_Satan|Relationship of Jesus and Satan]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The Bible also teaches that Jesus has eternally been God, while Joseph Smith teaches that Jesus had to achieve Godhood."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saint scripture teaches that Jesus is the Eternal God, Alpha and Omega, from everlasting to everlasting. Despite Christ's divinity, He nevertheless was obedient to God His Father, and "received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness" ({{s||DC|93|13}}).

The Saints thus accept the biblical witness that Jesus "increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man" ({{s||Luke|2|52}}). If Jesus increased in wisdom, then there was a time when He had less wisdom than He now has. The Saints also accept the biblical witness that Jesus "learned obedience by the things he suffered" ({{s||Hebrews|5|8}}) and "was in all points tempted as we are" ({{s||Hebrews|4|15}}).

As Paul taught, Jesus meekly obeyed the Father in all things, and accepted a status below the role of God to which He was entitled:

:[Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
:But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
:And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
:Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
:That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
:And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ({{s||Philippians|2|6-11}})

Jesus himself in {{s||John|5|19-20}} declared that, "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son and showeth him all things that himself doeth....” What did Jesus do? He was born of a woman, lived a sinless life, and after atoning for our sins, was glorified with a resurrected body of "flesh and bones" ({{s||Luke|24|36-39}}). If Christ followed the example of his Father, then the implication is clear.

Jesus humbled Himself in obedience to the Father, and was exalted thereafter ({{s||Hebrews|1|8-9}}).
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Did President Hinckley admit that the Church does not worship the Biblical Jesus?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The video makes much of a statement by Church President Gordon B. Hinckley:

:''No I don't believe in the traditional Christ. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the dispensation of the Fullness of Times.''
::<small>—President Gordon B. Hinckley, ''Deseret News'' (20 June 1998): 7. {{ss|url=DVD-25March2007:HinckleySS1}}</small>

It should be emphasized that the "traditions" alluded to by President Hinckley are the non-Biblical creeds. But, members of the Church do not reject the Biblical witness—it is partly ''because'' the creeds are not Biblical that the LDS do not use them.

President Hinckley continues to explain that revelation teaches more about God than philosophical speculation, and insists that he is a Christian, but the video does not quote this material:

:''[Jesus], together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.''
:''Am I Christian? Of course I am. I believe in Christ. I talk of Christ. I pray through Christ. I'm trying to follow Him and live His gospel in my life.''

President Hinckley elsewhere made it clear that we differ with other Christians over the creeds, not over the scriptural witness:

:''As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge is not based on ancient tradition, the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ. Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation who saw before him the great God of the universe and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. They spoke to him. He spoke with Them. He testified openly, unequivocally, and unabashedly of that great vision. It was a vision of the Almighty and of the Redeemer of the world, glorious beyond our understanding but certain and unequivocating in the knowledge which it brought. It is out of that knowledge, rooted deep in the soil of modern revelation, that we, in the words of Nephi, “talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that [we and] our children may know to what source [we] may look for a remission of [our] sins” ({{s|2|Nephi|25|26}}).''
::<small>—{{Ensign1|start=90|author=Gordon B. Hinckley|article=We Look to Christ|date=May 2002}}{{link|url=http://beta.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=69e58c6a47e0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}</small>

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Daniel C. Peterson and Stephen D. Ricks|article=Comparing LDS Beliefs with First-Century Christianity|date=March 1988|start=7}}{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=9649d7630a27b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}
* {{Newera1|author=Stephen E. Robinson|article=Are Mormons Christians?|start=41|date=May 1988}}{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=e0710e2cbc3fb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}

|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Search for the Truth DVD:Who Is Jesus?

2007-03-25T04:10:04Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Who Is Jesus?}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">What do the Latter-day Saints believe about Jesus Christ?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The video avoided quoting any of the many LDS statements about Jesus Christ which would allow the LDS and their scriptures to speak for themselves. Instead, the DVD focused on a few ideas out of context, while assuming that the non-biblical (extra-biblical) creeds—to which the producers and contributors apparently subscribe—are the proper (and only) interpretation of the Bible.

The LDS believe that Jesus Christ's role is central to our Heavenly Father's plan. Christ is unique in several respects from all other beings and spirit children of God:
* Jesus is God (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/1#2 John 1:1-2], [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/1/6#6 Hebrews 1:6], [http://scriptures.lds.org/1_ne/11/16#26 1 Nephi 11:16–26], [http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/76/13#13 D&C 76:13]).
* Jesus was and is perfect (sinless) (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/4/15 Hebrews 4:15]),
* Jesus is the Creator (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/3#3 John 1:3], [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/1/1#6 Hebrews 1:1–6], [http://scriptures.lds.org/mosiah/3/3#3 Mosiah 3:3], [http://scriptures.lds.org/hel/14/12#12 Helaman 14:12], [http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/2/1#1 Moses 2:1]).
* Jesus obeyed the Father in all things (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/1/11#11 3 Nephi 11:11]).
* Jesus was chosen and foreordained to be the Redeemer (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/isa/43/11#11 Isaiah 43:11], [http://scriptures.lds.org/mosiah/13/28#34 Mosiah 13:28–34], [http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/9/15#15 3 Nephi 9:15], [http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/4/2#2 Moses 4:2]).
* Jesus is the Mediator between God and humanity (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/14/6#6 John 14:6], [http://scriptures.lds.org/1_tim/2/5#5 1 Timothy 2:5], [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/8/5#5 Hebrews 8:5], [http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/2/28#28 2 Nephi 2:28], [http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/76/69#69 D&C 76:69]).
* Jesus was "the Only Begotten"—only He, of all God's children, had a physical inheritance in His body from God the Father. (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/14#14 John 1:14], [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/3/16#16 John 3:16], [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/14/3#3 John 14:3], [http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/4/11#11 Jacob 4:11], [http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/12/33#34 Alma 12:33–34]).
'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Twelve Apostles|article=The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints|date=December 2004|start=4}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2004.htm/ensign%20december%202004.htm/the%20living%20christ%20the%20testimony%20of%20the%20apostles%20the%20church%20of%20jesus%20christ%20of%20latterday%20saints.htm}}
* [[Worship_different_Jesus|Do LDS worship a 'different' Jesus?]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "There can be no greater contrast than the Jesus of the Bible with the Jesus of Mormonism." – Dr. Phil Roberts (President, Midwestern Bible Theological Seminary)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints find such a characterization misleading and offensive because it implies that LDS believe Joseph Smith is comparable to Jesus. LDS believe Jesus is God the Son as described in the New Testament and ''worship'' Him as such. LDS do ''not'' believe that Joseph Smith is God. We don't ''worship'' Joseph Smith just as other Christians don't ''worship'' Martin Luther. LDS ''revere'' Joseph Smith and hold him in high esteem, just as many Protestants do of Martin Luther and Catholics do the Pope.

More properly, there is a great contrast between the non-biblical ''creeds'' describing the nature of God and the scriptural record of God in the Bible as understood by the Latter-day Saints. The Saints have no quarrel with the Bible—they love and revere it as part of God's word to His children. They do not accept, however, the later additions of the creeds.

Just because the Saints' interpretation of some biblical passages does not match those of some other denominations does not mean that Mormons are not Christian or that they do not worship Jesus of the Bible. Were this the case, there could be no Christians, since every Christian faith differs from some other group in the interpretation of some Bible passages.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Worship_different_Jesus|Do Latter-day Saints worship a "different Jesus"?]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "In the Bible, and according to history as we believe and the actual work of Jesus Christ, He was God in the flesh, He was eternal with God, coequal uncreated." – Dr. Phil Roberts (President, Midwestern Bible Theological Seminary)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
This claim illustrates the source of the critics' attack on the Church, which has nothing to do with the Bible itself. Dr. Roberts and the video's producers are ''creedal Christians.'' That is, they accept beliefs which were formulated by councils of men hundreds of years after Christ's resurrection in an attempt to define the nature of God and Christ. The Latter-day Saints do not accept many of these creeds because they:
# are not found in the Holy Bible or other scripture
# were not taught or believed by Jesus or the early Christians
# were developed only with the addition of non-scriptural ideas and concepts (e.g., Greek philosophy)

Dr. Roberts believes that his creedal beliefs are scriptural (based on a particular interpretation of Bible verses), thus his appeal to later Christian history as authority in the above statement. The Latter-day Saints and many Christian scholars of religious history believe otherwise—they realize and admit that non-scriptural ideas had to be added to the Bible to formulate the creeds.

Latter-day Saints accept the witness that Jesus was God in the flesh and eternal with God, for this is the testimony of scripture. They do not accept the later additions of being "coequal uncreated," (though they understand 'uncreated' in a different sense than the creeds, as mentioned below).

'''To read more:'''
* [[Godhead and the Trinity]]: History of the creeds by non-LDS Christian authors and historians
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Nothing existed prior to the creator, which is Christ.... Jesus created all things and nothing existed prior to that creation." – John McCartney (Pastor, First Baptist Church of Tooele, Utah)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Pastor McCartney demonstrates that, once again, the video's quarrel is not that the Latter-day Saints do not believe the scriptures, but with the Latter-day Saints' reluctance to accept the ''creedal interpretation'' of scripture.

Pastor McCarney advocates the doctrine of creation out of nothing—sometimes called ''creatio ex nihilo.'' This doctrine holds that only God existed, and He created all other beings and things out of absolute nothiness.

This doctrine is not biblical, but draws again on the influence of Greek thought in later Christian centuries—the Latter-day Saints therefore do not accept biblical interpretations which rely on later creeds.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Creatio ex nihilo|Creation out of nothing]]: A non-biblical doctrine from the second century A.D.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: Mormons don't believe Jesus was the creator of all things.</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As noted above, this claim arises out of a commitment to the creed of ''creatio ex nihilo,'' not the Bible itself.

The LDS believe that some things simply cannot be created—"intelligence" and matter (see [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/93/29#29 D&C 93:29]). Thus, the LDS believe that God created all things ''that required'' creation, through Jesus Christ.

Under the ''ex nihilo'' creed, God cannot be created, so He exists necessarily. Creedal Christians see no contradiction in saying God created all things, even when He did not create Himself. Likewise, LDS Christians see no contradiction in claiming Jesus created all things, even if there are some things (like God) which are eternal and require no creation.

Latter-day Saints believe that, through the power of the Father, Christ is the creative agent behind everything that was, is, or will be created.

'''To read more:'''
* [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/j/31 Jesus Christ, Creator]: LDS scriptures topical guide.
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Does Colossians 1:17 teach that Jesus created all things and even the angels (including Satan) out of nothing?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Creedal Christians believe in the post-Biblical doctrine of ''[[creatio ex nihilo]]'' (creation out of nothing). Because this is how they understand the idea of creation, they read it into these verses.

Latter-day Saints have no quarrel with the doctrine taught in Colossians. They emphatically believe that the Father created all things by Jesus Christ. The video is misleading to suggest otherwise.

As one author observed, the Greek text does not teach ''ex nihilo,'' but creation out of pre-existing raw materials, since the verb ''ktidzo'' "carried an architectural connotation...as in 'to build' or 'establish' a city.... Thus, the verb presupposes the presence of already existing material."(Griffith, 72 {{wikilink|url=Creation_in_Colossians_1:16}}.)

One must not overlook {{s|2|Corinthians|4|18}}, which states that "the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal"—suggesting that aspects of the created "unseen world" are ''eternal'', despite the exercise of God's creative power upon them.

LDS doctrine sees creation as an act of organizing pre-existing, eternal matter and intelligence. (See {{s||DC|93|29}}, {{s||DC|131|7}}.)

Thus, Jesus certainly participated in the creation of all created things—but He worked with preexisting chaotic materials. The angelic ranks of "thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers" were also created by Christ, for these beings did not assume their angelic status or form without divine creative power, even though some aspect of their "intelligence" pre-dated God's creative acts in their behalf.

Each of us, along with Jesus and Lucifer, are children of our Father in Heaven. Our personality and character were developed during the long pre-mortal existence. During this time the Savior, as the first born of the Father, developed the attributes that allowed God the Father to trust Jesus with the creation of all things that would be created and to assume the divine role of The Son. With that same process Lucifer developed the attributes that led him into sin and rebellion.

The difference between Jesus and Lucifer is so great that we cannot fully understand it. The rest of God's children are somewhere in between these two extremes. Because of Jesus' role in the creation Satan's premortal powers and status were dependent upon the creative power and authority of God, exercised through Jesus Christ.

The difference between those who followed the Father and those who followed Lucifer is in part dependent upon the eternal aspect of each individual. This may help to explain Satan's antipathy toward Jesus, and his desire to usurp the power and authority of God possessed by Christ (see {{s||Moses|4|1|3}}).

The claim, then, that Jesus and Satan were merely peers, misunderstands and misrepresents the LDS doctrine of creation, and Jesus' pre-eminent role in it.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Creation in Colossians 1:16]]
*{{Ensign|author=Donald Q. Cannon, Larry E. Dahl, and John W. Welch|article=The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation|vol=19|start=27|end=33|date=January 1989}} {{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1989.htm/ensign%20january%201989.htm/the%20restoration%20of%20major%20doctrines%20through%20joseph%20smith%20the%20godhead%20mankind%20and%20the%20creation.htm}}
* {{Restoringancientchurch |title=The Doctrine of God and the Nature of Man:Creatio Ex Nihilo|chapter=3}}
*{{BYUS|author=Keith Norman|article=Ex Nihilo: The Development of the Doctrines of God and Creation in Early Christianity|vol=17|num=3|date=1977|start=291|end=318}} {{link|url=http://byustudies.byu.edu/Products/MoreInfoPage/MoreInfo.aspx?Type=7&ProdID=855}}
*{{FR-11-2-3}}
*{{FR-17-2-8}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">What are the implications of claiming that Jesus/God created Satan out of nothing?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The DVD opines that "there is an infinite chasm between Jesus Christ, creator God, and Satan, creature who has sinned."

This conclusion reflects the creedal conviction that God is totally 'other'—i.e., He is completely different in all aspects from His creations, including humanity. However, the video does not explore the implications of the claim that God created Satan out of nothing. If God did, as claimed, create Satan ''ex nihilo,'' then God could have created Satan differently. Satan (and all mankind) could have been created with a nature that would not predispose him to commit sin.

If God could have created Satan (or a mortal) in a different way, then in some sense God is responsible for their evil natures. The sins and evils committed by fallen beings become ''God's'' fault, because He could have made things differently, but did not. How is it then just to judge or punish a sinner for sin if the sinful nature was created by God out of nothing?

This is a major philosophical problem for those who embrace ''creatio ex nihilo.'' The LDS view, in which God creates by ''organizing'' eternal matter and intelligence, does not have these problems. Satan sinned because of his eternal nature: he made free choices based on who he has always been. Likewise, mortals cannot blame God for their sins, because their core nature was not created by God.

A Latter-day Saint Christian would argue that it does not lessen God for Him to allow other beings to make free choices and receive the consequences. Rather, they believe that there is a "vast gulf" between the loving God of the Bible and a belief that God wilfully creates degenerate, fallen, and sinful beings and then punishes them for natures which He gave them.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Satan's potential role in God's plan misrepresented</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The video does not accurately portray all of the LDS ideas regarding the "council in heaven" which are necessary for full understanding. The video correctly notes that two spirit children of God (Jesus and Satan) offered to play a role in God's plan for human happiness. However, it neglects to mention that Satan's offer was not welcome or anticipated. Satan's plan, and his offer to implement it, was never consistent with God the Father's plan of salvation, and if accepted it would have meant the end of any future opportunities for His children. Therefore, God would never have countenanced the implementation of
Satan's offer. God says that Jesus' role was determined from the beginning: "my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and
the glory be thine forever" ({{s||Moses|4|2}}).

'''To read more:'''
* [[Jesus_Christ_is_the_brother_of_Satan|Relationship of Jesus and Satan]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The Bible also teaches that Jesus has eternally been God, while Joseph Smith teaches that Jesus had to achieve Godhood."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saint scripture teaches that Jesus is the Eternal God, Alpha and Omega, from everlasting to everlasting. Despite Christ's divinity, He nevertheless was obedient to God His Father, and "received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness" ({{s||DC|93|13}}).

The Saints thus accept the biblical witness that Jesus "increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man" ({{s||Luke|2|52}}). If Jesus increased in wisdom, then there was a time when He had less wisdom than He now has. The Saints also accept the biblical witness that Jesus "learned obedience by the things he suffered" ({{s||Hebrews|5|8}}) and "was in all points tempted as we are" ({{s||Hebrews|4|15}}).

As Paul taught, Jesus meekly obeyed the Father in all things, and accepted a status below the role of God to which He was entitled:

:[Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
:But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
:And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
:Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
:That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
:And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ({{s||Philippians|2|6-11}})

Jesus himself in {{s||John|5|19-20}} declared that, "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son and showeth him all things that himself doeth....” What did Jesus do? He was born of a woman, lived a sinless life, and after atoning for our sins, was glorified with a resurrected body of "flesh and bones" ({{s||Luke|24|36-39}}). If Christ followed the example of his Father, then the implication is clear.

Jesus humbled Himself in obedience to the Father, and was exalted thereafter ({{s||Hebrews|1|8-9}}).
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Did President Hinckley admit that the Church does not worship the Biblical Jesus?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The video makes much of a statement by Church President Gordon B. Hinckley:

:''No I don't believe in the traditional Christ. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the dispensation of the Fullness of Times.''
::<small>—President Gordon B. Hinckley, ''Deseret News'' (20 June 1998): 7. {{ss|url=DVD-25March2007:HinckleySS1}}</small>

It should be emphasized that the "traditions" alluded to by President Hinckley are the non-Biblical creeds. But, members of the Church do not reject the Biblical witness—it is partly ''because'' the creeds are not Biblical that the LDS do not use them.

President Hinckley continues to explain that revelation teaches more about God than philosophical speculation, and insists that he is a Christian, but the video does not quote this material:

:''[Jesus], together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.''
:''Am I Christian? Of course I am. I believe in Christ. I talk of Christ. I pray through Christ. I'm trying to follow Him and live His gospel in my life.''

President Hinckley elsewhere made it clear that we differ with other Christians over the creeds, not over the scriptural witness:

:''As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge is not based on ancient tradition, the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ. Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation who saw before him the great God of the universe and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. They spoke to him. He spoke with Them. He testified openly, unequivocally, and unabashedly of that great vision. It was a vision of the Almighty and of the Redeemer of the world, glorious beyond our understanding but certain and unequivocating in the knowledge which it brought. It is out of that knowledge, rooted deep in the soil of modern revelation, that we, in the words of Nephi, “talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that [we and] our children may know to what source [we] may look for a remission of [our] sins” ({{s|2|Nephi|25|26}}).''
::<small>—{{Ensign1|start=90|author=Gordon B. Hinckley|article=We Look to Christ|date=May 2002}}{{link|url=http://beta.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=69e58c6a47e0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}</small>

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Daniel C. Peterson and Stephen D. Ricks|article=Comparing LDS Beliefs with First-Century Christianity|date=March 1988|start=7}}{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=9649d7630a27b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}
* {{Newera1|author=Stephen E. Robinson|article=Are Mormons Christians?|start=41|date=May 1988}}{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=e0710e2cbc3fb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}

|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Search for the Truth DVD:Who Is Jesus?

2007-03-25T03:23:43Z

JanAnderson: Added content to 2nd claim.

{{DVDHeadingBox|Who Is Jesus?}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">What do the Latter-day Saints believe about Jesus Christ?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The video avoided quoting any of the many LDS statements about Jesus Christ which would allow the LDS and their scriptures to speak for themselves. Instead, the DVD focused on a few ideas out of context, while assuming that the non-biblical creeds—to which the producers and contributors apparently subscribe—are the proper (and only) interpretation of the Bible.

The LDS believe that Jesus Christ's role is central to our Heavenly Father's plan. Christ is unique in several respects from all other beings and spirit children of God:
* Jesus is God (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/1#2 John 1:1-2], [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/1/6#6 Hebrews 1:6], [http://scriptures.lds.org/1_ne/11/16#26 1 Nephi 11:16–26], [http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/76/13#13 D&C 76:13]).
* Jesus was and is perfect
* Jesus is the Creator (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/3#3 John 1:3], [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/1/1#6 Hebrews 1:1–6], [http://scriptures.lds.org/mosiah/3/3#3 Mosiah 3:3], [http://scriptures.lds.org/hel/14/12#12 Helaman 14:12], [http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/2/1#1 Moses 2:1]).
* Jesus obeyed the Father in all things (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/1/11#11 3 Nephi 11:11]).
* Jesus was chosen and foreordained to be the Redeemer (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/isa/43/11#11 Isaiah 43:11], [http://scriptures.lds.org/mosiah/13/28#34 Mosiah 13:28–34], [http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/9/15#15 3 Nephi 9:15], [http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/4/2#2 Moses 4:2]).
* Jesus is the Mediator between God and humanity (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/14/6#6 John 14:6], [http://scriptures.lds.org/1_tim/2/5#5 1 Timothy 2:5], [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/8/5#5 Hebrews 8:5], [http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/2/28#28 2 Nephi 2:28], [http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/76/69#69 D&C 76:69]).
* Jesus was "the Only Begotten"—only He, of all God's children, had a physical inheritance in His body from God the Father. (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/14#14 John 1:14], [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/3/16#16 John 3:16], [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/14/3#3 John 14:3], [http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/4/11#11 Jacob 4:11], [http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/12/33#34 Alma 12:33–34]).
'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Twelve Apostles|article=The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints|date=December 2004|start=4}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2004.htm/ensign%20december%202004.htm/the%20living%20christ%20the%20testimony%20of%20the%20apostles%20the%20church%20of%20jesus%20christ%20of%20latterday%20saints.htm}}
* [[Worship_different_Jesus|Do LDS worship a 'different' Jesus?]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "There can be no greater contrast than the Jesus of the Bible with the Jesus of Mormonism." – Dr. Phil Roberts (President, Midwestern Bible Theological Seminary)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints find such a characterization misleading and offensive because it implies that LDS believe Joseph Smith is comparable to Jesus. LDS believe Jesus is God the Son as described in the New Testament and ''worship'' Him as such. LDS do ''not'' believe that Joseph Smith is God. We don't ''worship'' Joseph Smith just as other Christians don't ''worship'' Martin Luther. LDS ''revere'' Joseph Smith and hold him in high esteem, just as many Protestants do of Martin Luther and Catholics do the Pope.

More properly, there is a great contrast between the non-biblical ''creeds'' and the scriptural record of God in the Bible as understood by the Latter-day Saints. The Saints have no quarrel with the Bible—they love and revere it as part of God's word to His children. They do not accept, however, the later additions of the creeds.

Just because the Saints' interpretation of some biblical passages does not match those of some other denominations does not mean that Mormons are not Christian or that they do not worship the Jesus of the Bible. Were this the case, there could be no Christians, since every Christian faith differs from some other group in the interpretation of some Bible passages.

The DVD will not, of course, tell its viewers that independent surveys show Latter-day Saints more likely to read the Holy Bible during the week than Catholics or Protestants. {{link|url=http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=103}}

'''To read more:'''
* [[Worship_different_Jesus|Do Latter-day Saints worship a "different Jesus"?]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "In the Bible, and according to history as we believe and the actual work of Jesus Christ, He was God in the flesh, He was eternal with God, coequal uncreated." – Dr. Phil Roberts (President, Midwestern Bible Theological Seminary)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
This claim illustrates the source of the critics' attack on the Church, which has nothing to do with the Bible itself. Dr. Roberts and the video's producers are ''creedal Christians.'' That is, they accept beliefs which were formulated by councils hundreds of years after Christ's resurrection in an attempt to define the nature of God and Christ. The Latter-day Saints do not accept many of these creeds because they:
# are not found in the Holy Bible or other scripture
# were not taught or believed by Jesus or the early Christians
# were developed only with the addition of non-scriptural ideas and concepts (e.g., Greek philosophy)

Dr. Roberts believes that his creedal beliefs are scriptural, thus his appeal to later Christian history as authority in the above statement. The Latter-day Saints and many Christian scholars of religious history believe otherwise—they realize and admit that non-scriptural ideas had to be added to the Bible to formulate the creeds.

Latter-day Saints accept the witness that Jesus was God in the flesh and eternal with God, for this is the testimony of scripture. They do not accept the later additions of being "coequal uncreated," (though they understand 'uncreated' in a different sense than the creeds, as mentioned below).

'''To read more:'''
* [[Godhead and the Trinity]]: History of the creeds by non-LDS Christian authors and historians
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Nothing existed prior to the creator, which is Christ.... Jesus created all things and nothing existed prior to that creation." – John McCartney (Pastor, First Baptist Church of Tooele, Utah)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Pastor McCartney demonstrates that, once again, the video's quarrel is not that the Latter-day Saints do not believe the scriptures, but with the Latter-day Saints' reluctance to accept the ''creedal interpretation'' of scripture.

Pastor McCarney advocates the doctrine of creation out of nothing—sometimes called ''creatio ex nihilo.'' This doctrine holds that only God existed, and He created all other beings and things out of absolute nothiness.

This doctrine is not biblical, but draws again on the influence of Greek thought in later Christian centuries—the Latter-day Saints therefore do not accept Biblical interpretations which rely on later creeds.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Creatio ex nihilo|Creation out of nothing]]: A non-Biblical doctrine from the second century A.D.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: Mormons don't believe Jesus was the creator of all things.</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As noted above, this claim arises out of a commitment to the creed of ''creatio ex nihilo,'' not the Bible itself.

The LDS believe that some things simply cannot be created—"intelligence" and matter (see [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/93/29#29 D&C 93:29]). Thus, the LDS believe that God created all things ''that required'' creation, through Jesus Christ.

Under the ''ex nihilo'' creed, God cannot be created, so He exists necessarily. Creedal Christians see no contradiction in saying God created all things, even when He did not create Himself. Likewise, LDS Christians see no contradiction in claiming Jesus created all things, even if there are some things (like God) which are eternal and require no creation.

Latter-day Saints believe that, through the power of the Father, Christ is the creative agent behind everything that was, is, or will be created.

'''To read more:'''
* [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/j/31 Jesus Christ, Creator]: LDS scriptures topical guide.
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Does Colossians 1:17 teach that Jesus created all things and even the angels (including Satan) out of nothing?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Creedal Christians believe in the post-Biblical doctrine of ''[[creatio ex nihilo]]'' (creation out of nothing). Because this is how they understand the idea of creation, they read it into these verses.

Latter-day Saints have no quarrel with the doctrine taught in Colossians. They emphatically believe that the Father created all things by Jesus Christ. The video is misleading to suggest otherwise.

As one author observed, the Greek text does not teach ''ex nihilo,'' but creation out of pre-existing raw materials, since the verb ''ktidzo'' "carried an architectural connotation...as in 'to build' or 'establish' a city.... Thus, the verb presupposes the presence of already existing material."(Griffith, 72 {{wikilink|url=Creation_in_Colossians_1:16}}.)

One must not overlook {{s|2|Corinthians|4|18}}, which states that "the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal"—suggesting that aspects of the created "unseen world" are ''eternal'', despite the exercise of God's creative power upon them.

LDS doctrine sees creation as an act of organizing pre-existing, eternal matter and intelligence. (See {{s||DC|93|29}}, {{s||DC|131|7}}.)

Thus, Jesus certainly participated in the creation of all created things—but He worked with preexisting chaotic materials. The angelic ranks of "thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers" were also created by Christ, for these beings did not assume their angelic status or form without divine creative power, even though some aspect of their "intelligence" pre-dated God's creative acts in their behalf.

Each of us, along with Jesus and Lucifer, are children of our Father in Heaven. Our personality and character were developed during the long pre-mortal existence. During this time the Savior, as the first born of the Father, developed the attributes that allowed God the Father to trust Jesus with the creation of all things that would be created and to assume the divine role of The Son. With that same process Lucifer developed the attributes that led him into sin and rebellion.

The difference between Jesus and Lucifer is so great that we cannot fully understand it. The rest of God's children are somewhere in between these two extremes. Because of Jesus' role in the creation Satan's premortal powers and status were dependent upon the creative power and authority of God, exercised through Jesus Christ.

The difference between those who followed the Father and those who followed Lucifer is in part dependent upon the eternal aspect of each individual. This may help to explain Satan's antipathy toward Jesus, and his desire to usurp the power and authority of God possessed by Christ (see {{s||Moses|4|1|3}}).

The claim, then, that Jesus and Satan were merely peers, misunderstands and misrepresents the LDS doctrine of creation, and Jesus' pre-eminent role in it.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Creation in Colossians 1:16]]
*{{Ensign|author=Donald Q. Cannon, Larry E. Dahl, and John W. Welch|article=The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation|vol=19|start=27|end=33|date=January 1989}} {{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1989.htm/ensign%20january%201989.htm/the%20restoration%20of%20major%20doctrines%20through%20joseph%20smith%20the%20godhead%20mankind%20and%20the%20creation.htm}}
* {{Restoringancientchurch |title=The Doctrine of God and the Nature of Man:Creatio Ex Nihilo|chapter=3}}
*{{BYUS|author=Keith Norman|article=Ex Nihilo: The Development of the Doctrines of God and Creation in Early Christianity|vol=17|num=3|date=1977|start=291|end=318}} {{link|url=http://byustudies.byu.edu/Products/MoreInfoPage/MoreInfo.aspx?Type=7&ProdID=855}}
*{{FR-11-2-3}}
*{{FR-17-2-8}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">What are the implications of claiming that Jesus/God created Satan out of nothing?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The DVD opines that "there is an infinite chasm between Jesus Christ, creator God, and Satan, creature who has sinned."

This conclusion reflects the creedal conviction that God is totally 'other'—i.e., He is completely different in all aspects from His creations, including humanity. However, the video does not explore the implications of the claim that God created Satan out of nothing. If God did, as claimed, create Satan ''ex nihilo,'' then God could have created Satan differently. Satan (and all mankind) could have been created with a nature that would not predispose him to commit sin.

If God could have created Satan (or a mortal) in a different way, then in some sense God is responsible for their evil natures. The sins and evils committed by fallen beings become ''God's'' fault, because He could have made things differently, but did not. How is it then just to judge or punish a sinner for sin if the sinful nature was created by God out of nothing?

This is a major philosophical problem for those who embrace ''creatio ex nihilo.'' The LDS view, in which God creates by ''organizing'' eternal matter and intelligence, does not have these problems. Satan sinned because of his eternal nature: he made free choices based on who he has always been. Likewise, mortals cannot blame God for their sins, because their core nature was not created by God.

A Latter-day Saint Christian would argue that it does not lessen God for Him to allow other beings to make free choices and receive the consequences. Rather, they believe that there is a "vast gulf" between the loving God of the Bible and a belief that God wilfully creates degenerate, fallen, and sinful beings and then punishes them for natures which He gave them.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Satan's potential role in God's plan misrepresented</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The video does not accurately portray all of the LDS ideas regarding the "council in heaven" which are necessary for full understanding. The video correctly notes that two spirit children of God (Jesus and Satan) offered to play a role in God's plan for human happiness. However, it neglects to mention that Satan's offer was not welcome or anticipated. Satan's plan, and his offer to implement it, was never consistent with God the Father's plan of salvation, and if accepted it would have meant the end of any future opportunities for His children. Therefore, God would never have countenanced the implementation of
Satan's offer. God says that Jesus' role was determined from the beginning: "my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and
the glory be thine forever" ({{s||Moses|4|2}}).

'''To read more:'''
* [[Jesus_Christ_is_the_brother_of_Satan|Relationship of Jesus and Satan]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The Bible also teaches that Jesus has eternally been God, while Joseph Smith teaches that Jesus had to achieve Godhood."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saint scripture teaches that Jesus is the Eternal God, Alpha and Omega, from everlasting to everlasting. Despite Christ's divinity, He nevertheless was obedient to God His Father, and "received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness" ({{s||DC|93|13}}).

The Saints thus accept the biblical witness that Jesus "increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man" ({{s||Luke|2|52}}). If Jesus increased in wisdom, then there was a time when He had less wisdom than He now has. The Saints also accept the biblical witness that Jesus "learned obedience by the things he suffered" ({{s||Hebrews|5|8}}) and "was in all points tempted as we are" ({{s||Hebrews|4|15}}).

As Paul taught, Jesus meekly obeyed the Father in all things, and accepted a status below the role of God to which He was entitled:

:[Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
:But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
:And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
:Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
:That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
:And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ({{s||Philippians|2|6-11}})

Jesus himself in {{s||John|5|19-20}} declared that, "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son and showeth him all things that himself doeth....” What did Jesus do? He was born of a woman, lived a sinless life, and after atoning for our sins, was glorified with a resurrected body of "flesh and bones" ({{s||Luke|24|36-39}}). If Christ followed the example of his Father, then the implication is clear.

Jesus humbled Himself in obedience to the Father, and was exalted thereafter ({{s||Hebrews|1|8-9}}).
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Did President Hinckley admit that the Church does not worship the Biblical Jesus?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The video makes much of a statement by Church President Gordon B. Hinckley:

:''No I don't believe in the traditional Christ. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the dispensation of the Fullness of Times.''
::<small>—President Gordon B. Hinckley, ''Deseret News'' (20 June 1998): 7. {{ss|url=DVD-25March2007:HinckleySS1}}</small>

It should be emphasized that the "traditions" alluded to by President Hinckley are the non-Biblical creeds. But, members of the Church do not reject the Biblical witness—it is partly ''because'' the creeds are not Biblical that the LDS do not use them.

President Hinckley continues to explain that revelation teaches more about God than philosophical speculation, and insists that he is a Christian, but the video does not quote this material:

:''[Jesus], together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.''
:''Am I Christian? Of course I am. I believe in Christ. I talk of Christ. I pray through Christ. I'm trying to follow Him and live His gospel in my life.''

President Hinckley elsewhere made it clear that we differ with other Christians over the creeds, not over the scriptural witness:

:''As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge is not based on ancient tradition, the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ. Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation who saw before him the great God of the universe and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. They spoke to him. He spoke with Them. He testified openly, unequivocally, and unabashedly of that great vision. It was a vision of the Almighty and of the Redeemer of the world, glorious beyond our understanding but certain and unequivocating in the knowledge which it brought. It is out of that knowledge, rooted deep in the soil of modern revelation, that we, in the words of Nephi, “talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that [we and] our children may know to what source [we] may look for a remission of [our] sins” ({{s|2|Nephi|25|26}}).''
::<small>—{{Ensign1|start=90|author=Gordon B. Hinckley|article=We Look to Christ|date=May 2002}}{{link|url=http://beta.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=69e58c6a47e0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}</small>

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Daniel C. Peterson and Stephen D. Ricks|article=Comparing LDS Beliefs with First-Century Christianity|date=March 1988|start=7}}{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=9649d7630a27b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}
* {{Newera1|author=Stephen E. Robinson|article=Are Mormons Christians?|start=41|date=May 1988}}{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=e0710e2cbc3fb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}

|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Search for the Truth DVD:Who Is Jesus?

2007-03-25T02:53:42Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Who Is Jesus?}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">What do the Latter-day Saints believe about Jesus Christ?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The video avoided quoting any of the many LDS statements about Jesus Christ which would allow the LDS and their scriptures to speak for themselves. Instead, the DVD focused on a few ideas out of context, while assuming that the non-biblical creeds—to which the producers and contributors apparently subscribe—are the proper (and only) interpretation of the Bible.

The LDS believe that Jesus Christ's role is central to our Heavenly Father's plan. Christ is unique in several respects from all other beings and spirit children of God:
* Jesus is God (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/1#2 John 1:1-2], [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/1/6#6 Hebrews 1:6], [http://scriptures.lds.org/1_ne/11/16#26 1 Nephi 11:16–26], [http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/76/13#13 D&C 76:13]).
* Jesus was and is perfect
* Jesus is the Creator (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/3#3 John 1:3], [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/1/1#6 Hebrews 1:1–6], [http://scriptures.lds.org/mosiah/3/3#3 Mosiah 3:3], [http://scriptures.lds.org/hel/14/12#12 Helaman 14:12], [http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/2/1#1 Moses 2:1]).
* Jesus obeyed the Father in all things (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/1/11#11 3 Nephi 11:11]).
* Jesus was chosen and foreordained to be the Redeemer (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/isa/43/11#11 Isaiah 43:11], [http://scriptures.lds.org/mosiah/13/28#34 Mosiah 13:28–34], [http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/9/15#15 3 Nephi 9:15], [http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/4/2#2 Moses 4:2]).
* Jesus is the Mediator between God and humanity (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/14/6#6 John 14:6], [http://scriptures.lds.org/1_tim/2/5#5 1 Timothy 2:5], [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/8/5#5 Hebrews 8:5], [http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/2/28#28 2 Nephi 2:28], [http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/76/69#69 D&C 76:69]).
* Jesus was "the Only Begotten"—only He, of all God's children, had a physical inheritance in His body from God the Father. (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/14#14 John 1:14], [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/3/16#16 John 3:16], [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/14/3#3 John 14:3], [http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/4/11#11 Jacob 4:11], [http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/12/33#34 Alma 12:33–34]).
'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Twelve Apostles|article=The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints|date=December 2004|start=4}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2004.htm/ensign%20december%202004.htm/the%20living%20christ%20the%20testimony%20of%20the%20apostles%20the%20church%20of%20jesus%20christ%20of%20latterday%20saints.htm}}
* [[Worship_different_Jesus|Do LDS worship a 'different' Jesus?]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "There can be no greater contrast than the Jesus of the Bible with the Jesus of Mormonism." – Dr. Phil Roberts (President, Midwestern Bible Theological Seminary)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This statement is inflammatory and misleading. Latter-day Saints find such a characterization offensive and unfair. More properly, there is a great contrast between the non-Biblical ''creeds'' and the scriptural record as understood by the Latter-day Saints. The Saints have no quarrel with the Bible—they love and revere it as part of God's word to His children. They do not accept, however, the later additions of the creeds.

Just because the Saints' interpretation of some biblical passages does not match those of some other denominations does not mean that Mormons are not Christian or that they do not worship the Jesus of the Bible. Were this the case, there could be no Christians, since every Christian faith differs from some other group in the interpretation of some Bible passages.

The DVD will not, of course, tell its viewers that independent surveys show Latter-day Saints more likely to read the Holy Bible during the week than Catholics or Protestants. {{link|url=http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=103}}

'''To read more:'''
* [[Worship_different_Jesus|Do Latter-day Saints worship a "different Jesus"?]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "In the Bible, and according to history as we believe and the actual work of Jesus Christ, He was God in the flesh, He was eternal with God, coequal uncreated." – Dr. Phil Roberts (President, Midwestern Bible Theological Seminary)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
This claim illustrates the source of the critics' attack on the Church, which has nothing to do with the Bible itself. Dr. Roberts and the video's producers are ''creedal Christians.'' That is, they accept beliefs which were formulated by councils hundreds of years after Christ's resurrection in an attempt to define the nature of God and Christ. The Latter-day Saints do not accept many of these creeds because they:
# are not found in the Holy Bible or other scripture
# were not taught or believed by Jesus or the early Christians
# were developed only with the addition of non-scriptural ideas and concepts (e.g., Greek philosophy)

Dr. Roberts believes that his creedal beliefs are scriptural, thus his appeal to later Christian history as authority in the above statement. The Latter-day Saints and many Christian scholars of religious history believe otherwise—they realize and admit that non-scriptural ideas had to be added to the Bible to formulate the creeds.

Latter-day Saints accept the witness that Jesus was God in the flesh and eternal with God, for this is the testimony of scripture. They do not accept the later additions of being "coequal uncreated," (though they understand 'uncreated' in a different sense than the creeds, as mentioned below).

'''To read more:'''
* [[Godhead and the Trinity]]: History of the creeds by non-LDS Christian authors and historians
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Nothing existed prior to the creator, which is Christ.... Jesus created all things and nothing existed prior to that creation." – John McCartney (Pastor, First Baptist Church of Tooele, Utah)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Pastor McCartney demonstrates that, once again, the video's quarrel is not that the Latter-day Saints do not believe the scriptures, but with the Latter-day Saints' reluctance to accept the ''creedal interpretation'' of scripture.

Pastor McCarney advocates the doctrine of creation out of nothing—sometimes called ''creatio ex nihilo.'' This doctrine holds that only God existed, and He created all other beings and things out of absolute nothiness.

This doctrine is not biblical, but draws again on the influence of Greek thought in later Christian centuries—the Latter-day Saints therefore do not accept Biblical interpretations which rely on later creeds.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Creatio ex nihilo|Creation out of nothing]]: A non-Biblical doctrine from the second century A.D.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: Mormons don't believe Jesus was the creator of all things.</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As noted above, this claim arises out of a commitment to the creed of ''creatio ex nihilo,'' not the Bible itself.

The LDS believe that some things simply cannot be created—"intelligence" and matter (see [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/93/29#29 D&C 93:29]). Thus, the LDS believe that God created all things ''that required'' creation, through Jesus Christ.

Under the ''ex nihilo'' creed, God cannot be created, so He exists necessarily. Creedal Christians see no contradiction in saying God created all things, even when He did not create Himself. Likewise, LDS Christians see no contradiction in claiming Jesus created all things, even if there are some things (like God) which are eternal and require no creation.

Latter-day Saints believe that, through the power of the Father, Christ is the creative agent behind everything that was, is, or will be created.

'''To read more:'''
* [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/j/31 Jesus Christ, Creator]: LDS scriptures topical guide.
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Does Colossians 1:17 teach that Jesus created all things and even the angels (including Satan) out of nothing?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Creedal Christians believe in the post-Biblical doctrine of ''[[creatio ex nihilo]]'' (creation out of nothing). Because this is how they understand the idea of creation, they read it into these verses.

Latter-day Saints have no quarrel with the doctrine taught in Colossians. They emphatically believe that the Father created all things by Jesus Christ. The video is misleading to suggest otherwise.

As one author observed, the Greek text does not teach ''ex nihilo,'' but creation out of pre-existing raw materials, since the verb ''ktidzo'' "carried an architectural connotation...as in 'to build' or 'establish' a city.... Thus, the verb presupposes the presence of already existing material."(Griffith, 72 {{wikilink|url=Creation_in_Colossians_1:16}}.)

One must not overlook {{s|2|Corinthians|4|18}}, which states that "the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal"—suggesting that aspects of the created "unseen world" are ''eternal'', despite the exercise of God's creative power upon them.

LDS doctrine sees creation as an act of organizing pre-existing, eternal matter and intelligence. (See {{s||DC|93|29}}, {{s||DC|131|7}}.)

Thus, Jesus certainly participated in the creation of all created things—but He worked with preexisting chaotic materials. The angelic ranks of "thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers" were also created by Christ, for these beings did not assume their angelic status or form without divine creative power, even though some aspect of their "intelligence" pre-dated God's creative acts in their behalf.

Each of us, along with Jesus and Lucifer, are children of our Father in Heaven. Our personality and character were developed during the long pre-mortal existence. During this time the Savior, as the first born of the Father, developed the attributes that allowed God the Father to trust Jesus with the creation of all things that would be created and to assume the divine role of The Son. With that same process Lucifer developed the attributes that led him into sin and rebellion.

The difference between Jesus and Lucifer is so great that we cannot fully understand it. The rest of God's children are somewhere in between these two extremes. Because of Jesus' role in the creation Satan's premortal powers and status were dependent upon the creative power and authority of God, exercised through Jesus Christ.

The difference between those who followed the Father and those who followed Lucifer is in part dependent upon the eternal aspect of each individual. This may help to explain Satan's antipathy toward Jesus, and his desire to usurp the power and authority of God possessed by Christ (see {{s||Moses|4|1|3}}).

The claim, then, that Jesus and Satan were merely peers, misunderstands and misrepresents the LDS doctrine of creation, and Jesus' pre-eminent role in it.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Creation in Colossians 1:16]]
*{{Ensign|author=Donald Q. Cannon, Larry E. Dahl, and John W. Welch|article=The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation|vol=19|start=27|end=33|date=January 1989}} {{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1989.htm/ensign%20january%201989.htm/the%20restoration%20of%20major%20doctrines%20through%20joseph%20smith%20the%20godhead%20mankind%20and%20the%20creation.htm}}
* {{Restoringancientchurch |title=The Doctrine of God and the Nature of Man:Creatio Ex Nihilo|chapter=3}}
*{{BYUS|author=Keith Norman|article=Ex Nihilo: The Development of the Doctrines of God and Creation in Early Christianity|vol=17|num=3|date=1977|start=291|end=318}} {{link|url=http://byustudies.byu.edu/Products/MoreInfoPage/MoreInfo.aspx?Type=7&ProdID=855}}
*{{FR-11-2-3}}
*{{FR-17-2-8}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">What are the implications of claiming that Jesus/God created Satan out of nothing?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The DVD opines that "there is an infinite chasm between Jesus Christ, creator God, and Satan, creature who has sinned."

This conclusion reflects the creedal conviction that God is totally 'other'—i.e., He is completely different in all aspects from His creations, including humanity. However, the video does not explore the implications of the claim that God created Satan out of nothing. If God did, as claimed, create Satan ''ex nihilo,'' then God could have created Satan differently. Satan (and all mankind) could have been created with a nature that would not predispose him to commit sin.

If God could have created Satan (or a mortal) in a different way, then in some sense God is responsible for their evil natures. The sins and evils committed by fallen beings become ''God's'' fault, because He could have made things differently, but did not. How is it then just to judge or punish a sinner for sin if the sinful nature was created by God out of nothing?

This is a major philosophical problem for those who embrace ''creatio ex nihilo.'' The LDS view, in which God creates by ''organizing'' eternal matter and intelligence, does not have these problems. Satan sinned because of his eternal nature: he made free choices based on who he has always been. Likewise, mortals cannot blame God for their sins, because their core nature was not created by God.

A Latter-day Saint Christian would argue that it does not lessen God for Him to allow other beings to make free choices and receive the consequences. Rather, they believe that there is a "vast gulf" between the loving God of the Bible and a belief that God wilfully creates degenerate, fallen, and sinful beings and then punishes them for natures which He gave them.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Satan's potential role in God's plan misrepresented</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The video does not accurately portray all of the LDS ideas regarding the "council in heaven" which are necessary for full understanding. The video correctly notes that two spirit children of God (Jesus and Satan) offered to play a role in God's plan for human happiness. However, it neglects to mention that Satan's offer was not welcome or anticipated. Satan's plan, and his offer to implement it, was never consistent with God the Father's plan of salvation, and if accepted it would have meant the end of any future opportunities for His children. Therefore, God would never have countenanced the implementation of
Satan's offer. God says that Jesus' role was determined from the beginning: "my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and
the glory be thine forever" ({{s||Moses|4|2}}).

'''To read more:'''
* [[Jesus_Christ_is_the_brother_of_Satan|Relationship of Jesus and Satan]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The Bible also teaches that Jesus has eternally been God, while Joseph Smith teaches that Jesus had to achieve Godhood."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saint scripture teaches that Jesus is the Eternal God, Alpha and Omega, from everlasting to everlasting. Despite Christ's divinity, He nevertheless was obedient to God His Father, and "received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness" ({{s||DC|93|13}}).

The Saints thus accept the biblical witness that Jesus "increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man" ({{s||Luke|2|52}}). If Jesus increased in wisdom, then there was a time when He had less wisdom than He now has. The Saints also accept the biblical witness that Jesus "learned obedience by the things he suffered" ({{s||Hebrews|5|8}}) and "was in all points tempted as we are" ({{s||Hebrews|4|15}}).

As Paul taught, Jesus meekly obeyed the Father in all things, and accepted a status below the role of God to which He was entitled:

:[Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
:But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
:And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
:Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
:That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
:And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ({{s||Philippians|2|6-11}})

Jesus himself in {{s||John|5|19-20}} declared that, "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son and showeth him all things that himself doeth....” What did Jesus do? He was born of a woman, lived a sinless life, and after atoning for our sins, was glorified with a resurrected body of "flesh and bones" ({{s||Luke|24|36-39}}). If Christ followed the example of his Father, then the implication is clear.

Jesus humbled Himself in obedience to the Father, and was exalted thereafter ({{s||Hebrews|1|8-9}}).
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Did President Hinckley admit that the Church does not worship the Biblical Jesus?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The video makes much of a statement by Church President Gordon B. Hinckley:

:''No I don't believe in the traditional Christ. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the dispensation of the Fullness of Times.''
::<small>—President Gordon B. Hinckley, ''Deseret News'' (20 June 1998): 7. {{ss|url=DVD-25March2007:HinckleySS1}}</small>

It should be emphasized that the "traditions" alluded to by President Hinckley are the non-Biblical creeds. But, members of the Church do not reject the Biblical witness—it is partly ''because'' the creeds are not Biblical that the LDS do not use them.

President Hinckley continues to explain that revelation teaches more about God than philosophical speculation, and insists that he is a Christian, but the video does not quote this material:

:''[Jesus], together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.''
:''Am I Christian? Of course I am. I believe in Christ. I talk of Christ. I pray through Christ. I'm trying to follow Him and live His gospel in my life.''

President Hinckley elsewhere made it clear that we differ with other Christians over the creeds, not over the scriptural witness:

:''As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge is not based on ancient tradition, the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ. Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation who saw before him the great God of the universe and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. They spoke to him. He spoke with Them. He testified openly, unequivocally, and unabashedly of that great vision. It was a vision of the Almighty and of the Redeemer of the world, glorious beyond our understanding but certain and unequivocating in the knowledge which it brought. It is out of that knowledge, rooted deep in the soil of modern revelation, that we, in the words of Nephi, “talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that [we and] our children may know to what source [we] may look for a remission of [our] sins” ({{s|2|Nephi|25|26}}).''
::<small>—{{Ensign1|start=90|author=Gordon B. Hinckley|article=We Look to Christ|date=May 2002}}{{link|url=http://beta.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=69e58c6a47e0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}</small>

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Daniel C. Peterson and Stephen D. Ricks|article=Comparing LDS Beliefs with First-Century Christianity|date=March 1988|start=7}}{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=9649d7630a27b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}
* {{Newera1|author=Stephen E. Robinson|article=Are Mormons Christians?|start=41|date=May 1988}}{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=e0710e2cbc3fb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}

|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Search for the Truth DVD:Who Is Jesus?

2007-03-25T02:29:52Z

JanAnderson: Typos

{{DVDHeadingBox|Who Is Jesus?}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">What do the Latter-day Saints believe about Jesus Christ?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The video avoided quoting any of the many LDS statements about Jesus Christ which would allow the LDS and their scriptures to speak for themselves. Instead, the DVD focused on a few ideas out of context, while assuming that the non-biblical creeds—to which the producers and contributors apparently subscribe—are the proper interpretation of the Bible.

The LDS believe that Jesus Christ's role is central to our Heavenly Father's plan. Christ is unique in several respects from all other beings and spirit children of God:
* Jesus is God (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/1#2 John 1:1-2], [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/1/6#6 Hebrews 1:6], [http://scriptures.lds.org/1_ne/11/16#26 1 Nephi 11:16–26], [http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/76/13#13 D&C 76:13]).
* Jesus was and is perfect
* Jesus is the Creator (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/3#3 John 1:3], [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/1/1#6 Hebrews 1:1–6], [http://scriptures.lds.org/mosiah/3/3#3 Mosiah 3:3], [http://scriptures.lds.org/hel/14/12#12 Helaman 14:12], [http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/2/1#1 Moses 2:1]).
* Jesus obeyed the Father in all things (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/1/11#11 3 Nephi 11:11]).
* Jesus was chosen and foreordained to be the Redeemer (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/isa/43/11#11 Isaiah 43:11], [http://scriptures.lds.org/mosiah/13/28#34 Mosiah 13:28–34], [http://scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/9/15#15 3 Nephi 9:15], [http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/4/2#2 Moses 4:2]).
* Jesus is the Mediator between God and humanity (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/14/6#6 John 14:6], [http://scriptures.lds.org/1_tim/2/5#5 1 Timothy 2:5], [http://scriptures.lds.org/heb/8/5#5 Hebrews 8:5], [http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/2/28#28 2 Nephi 2:28], [http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/76/69#69 D&C 76:69]).
* Jesus was "the Only Begotten"—only He, of all God's children, had a physical inheritance in His body from God the Father. (See [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/1/14#14 John 1:14], [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/3/16#16 John 3:16], [http://scriptures.lds.org/john/14/3#3 John 14:3], [http://scriptures.lds.org/jacob/4/11#11 Jacob 4:11], [http://scriptures.lds.org/alma/12/33#34 Alma 12:33–34]).
'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Twelve Apostles|article=The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints|date=December 2004|start=4}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/2004.htm/ensign%20december%202004.htm/the%20living%20christ%20the%20testimony%20of%20the%20apostles%20the%20church%20of%20jesus%20christ%20of%20latterday%20saints.htm}}
* [[Worship_different_Jesus|Do LDS worship a 'different' Jesus?]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "There can be no greater contrast than the Jesus of the Bible with the Jesus of Mormonism." – Dr. Phil Roberts (President, Midwestern Bible Theological Seminary)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This statement is inflammatory and misleading. Latter-day Saints find such a characterization offensive and unfair. More properly, there is a great contrast between the non-Biblical ''creeds'' and the scriptural record as understood by the Latter-day Saints. The Saints have no quarrel with the Bible—they love and revere it as part of God's word to His children. They do not accept, however, the later additions of the creeds.

Just because the Saints' interpretation of some biblical passages does not match those of some other denominations does not mean that Mormons are not Christian or that they do not worship the Jesus of the Bible. Were this the case, there could be no Christians, since every Christian faith differs from some other group in the interpretation of some Bible passages.

The DVD will not, of course, tell its viewers that independent surveys show Latter-day Saints more likely to read the Holy Bible during the week than Catholics or Protestants. {{link|url=http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=103}}

'''To read more:'''
* [[Worship_different_Jesus|Do Latter-day Saints worship a "different Jesus"?]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "In the Bible, and according to history as we believe and the actual work of Jesus Christ, He was God in the flesh, He was eternal with God, coequal uncreated." – Dr. Phil Roberts (President, Midwestern Bible Theological Seminary)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
This claim illustrates the source of the critics' attack on the Church, which has nothing to do with the Bible itself. Dr. Roberts and the video's producers are ''creedal Christians.'' That is, they accept beliefs which were formulated by councils hundreds of years after Christ's resurrection in an attempt to define the nature of God and Christ. The Latter-day Saints do not accept many of these creeds because they:
# are not found in the Holy Bible or other scripture
# were not taught or believed by Jesus or the early Christians
# were developed only with the addition of non-scriptural ideas and concepts (e.g., Greek philosophy)

Dr. Roberts believes that his creedal beliefs are scriptural, thus his appeal to later Christian history as authority in the above statement. The Latter-day Saints and many Christian scholars of religious history believe otherwise—they realize and admit that non-scriptural ideas had to be added to the Bible to formulate the creeds.

Latter-day Saints accept the witness that Jesus was God in the flesh and eternal with God, for this is the testimony of scripture. They do not accept the later additions of being "coequal uncreated," (though they understand 'uncreated' in a different sense than the creeds, as mentioned below).

'''To read more:'''
* [[Godhead and the Trinity]]: History of the creeds by non-LDS Christian authors and historians
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Nothing existed prior to the creator, which is Christ.... Jesus created all things and nothing existed prior to that creation." – John McCartney (Pastor, First Baptist Church of Tooele, Utah)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Pastor McCartney demonstrates that, once again, the video's quarrel is not that the Latter-day Saints do not believe the scriptures, but with the Latter-day Saints' reluctance to accept the ''creedal interpretation'' of scripture.

Pastor McCarney advocates the doctrine of creation out of nothing—sometimes called ''creatio ex nihilo.'' This doctrine holds that only God existed, and He created all other beings and things out of absolute nothiness.

This doctrine is not biblical, but draws again on the influence of Greek thought in later Christian centuries—the Latter-day Saints therefore do not accept Biblical interpretations which rely on later creeds.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Creatio ex nihilo|Creation out of nothing]]: A non-Biblical doctrine from the second century A.D.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: Mormons don't believe Jesus was the creator of all things.</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As noted above, this claim arises out of a commitment to the creed of ''creatio ex nihilo,'' not the Bible itself.

The LDS believe that some things simply cannot be created—"intelligence" and matter (see [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/93/29#29 D&C 93:29]). Thus, the LDS believe that God created all things ''that required'' creation, through Jesus Christ.

Under the ''ex nihilo'' creed, God cannot be created, so He exists necessarily. Creedal Christians see no contradiction in saying God created all things, even when He did not create Himself. Likewise, LDS Christians see no contradiction in claiming Jesus created all things, even if there are some things (like God) which are eternal and require no creation.

Latter-day Saints believe that, through the power of the Father, Christ is the creative agent behind everything that was, is, or will be created.

'''To read more:'''
* [http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/j/31 Jesus Christ, Creator]: LDS scriptures topical guide.
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Does Colossians 1:17 teach that Jesus created all things and even the angels (including Satan) out of nothing?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Creedal Christians believe in the post-Biblical doctrine of ''[[creatio ex nihilo]]'' (creation out of nothing). Because this is how they understand the idea of creation, they read it into these verses.

Latter-day Saints have no quarrel with the doctrine taught in Colossians. They emphatically believe that the Father created all things by Jesus Christ. The video is misleading to suggest otherwise.

As one author observed, the Greek text does not teach ''ex nihilo,'' but creation out of pre-existing raw materials, since the verb ''ktidzo'' "carried an architectural connotation...as in 'to build' or 'establish' a city.... Thus, the verb presupposes the presence of already existing material."(Griffith, 72 {{wikilink|url=Creation_in_Colossians_1:16}}.)

One must not overlook {{s|2|Corinthians|4|18}}, which states that "the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal"—suggesting that aspects of the created "unseen world" are ''eternal'', despite the exercise of God's creative power upon them.

LDS doctrine sees creation as an act of organizing pre-existing, eternal matter and intelligence. (See {{s||DC|93|29}}, {{s||DC|131|7}}.)

Thus, Jesus certainly participated in the creation of all created things—but He worked with preexisting chaotic materials. The angelic ranks of "thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers" were also created by Christ, for these beings did not assume their angelic status or form without divine creative power, even though some aspect of their "intelligence" pre-dated God's creative acts in their behalf.

Each of us, along with Jesus and Lucifer, are children of our Father in Heaven. Our personality and character were developed during the long pre-mortal existence. During this time the Savior, as the first born of the Father, developed the attributes that allowed God the Father to trust Jesus with the creation of all things that would be created and to assume the divine role of The Son. With that same process Lucifer developed the attributes that led him into sin and rebellion.

The difference between Jesus and Lucifer is so great that we cannot fully understand it. The rest of God's children are somewhere in between these two extremes. Because of Jesus' role in the creation Satan's premortal powers and status were dependent upon the creative power and authority of God, exercised through Jesus Christ.

The difference between those who followed the Father and those who followed Lucifer is in part dependent upon the eternal aspect of each individual. This may help to explain Satan's antipathy toward Jesus, and his desire to usurp the power and authority of God possessed by Christ (see {{s||Moses|4|1|3}}).

The claim, then, that Jesus and Satan were merely peers, misunderstands and misrepresents the LDS doctrine of creation, and Jesus' pre-eminent role in it.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Creation in Colossians 1:16]]
*{{Ensign|author=Donald Q. Cannon, Larry E. Dahl, and John W. Welch|article=The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation|vol=19|start=27|end=33|date=January 1989}} {{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1989.htm/ensign%20january%201989.htm/the%20restoration%20of%20major%20doctrines%20through%20joseph%20smith%20the%20godhead%20mankind%20and%20the%20creation.htm}}
* {{Restoringancientchurch |title=The Doctrine of God and the Nature of Man:Creatio Ex Nihilo|chapter=3}}
*{{BYUS|author=Keith Norman|article=Ex Nihilo: The Development of the Doctrines of God and Creation in Early Christianity|vol=17|num=3|date=1977|start=291|end=318}} {{link|url=http://byustudies.byu.edu/Products/MoreInfoPage/MoreInfo.aspx?Type=7&ProdID=855}}
*{{FR-11-2-3}}
*{{FR-17-2-8}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">What are the implications of claiming that Jesus/God created Satan out of nothing?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The DVD opines that "there is an infinite chasm between Jesus Christ, creator God, and Satan, creature who has sinned."

This conclusion reflects the creedal conviction that God is totally 'other'—i.e., He is completely different in all aspects from His creations, including humanity. However, the video does not explore the implications of the claim that God created Satan out of nothing. If God did, as claimed, create Satan ''ex nihilo,'' then God could have created Satan differently. Satan (and all mankind) could have been created with a nature that would not predispose him to commit sin.

If God could have created Satan (or a mortal) in a different way, then in some sense God is responsible for their evil natures. The sins and evils committed by fallen beings become ''God's'' fault, because He could have made things differently, but did not. How is it then just to judge or punish a sinner for sin if the sinful nature was created by God out of nothing?

This is a major philosophical problem for those who embrace ''creatio ex nihilo.'' The LDS view, in which God creates by ''organizing'' eternal matter and intelligence, does not have these problems. Satan sinned because of his eternal nature: he made free choices based on who he has always been. Likewise, mortals cannot blame God for their sins, because their core nature was not created by God.

A Latter-day Saint Christian would argue that it does not lessen God for Him to allow other beings to make free choices and receive the consequences. Rather, they believe that there is a "vast gulf" between the loving God of the Bible and a belief that God wilfully creates degenerate, fallen, and sinful beings and then punishes them for natures which He gave them.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Satan's potential role in God's plan misrepresented</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The video does not accurately portray all of the LDS ideas regarding the "council in heaven" which are necessary for full understanding. The video correctly notes that two spirit children of God (Jesus and Satan) offered to play a role in God's plan for human happiness. However, it neglects to mention that Satan's offer was not welcome or anticipated. Satan's plan, and his offer to implement it, was never consistent with God the Father's plan of salvation, and if accepted it would have meant the end of any future opportunities for His children. Therefore, God would never have countenanced the implementation of
Satan's offer. God says that Jesus' role was determined from the beginning: "my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and
the glory be thine forever" ({{s||Moses|4|2}}).

'''To read more:'''
* [[Jesus_Christ_is_the_brother_of_Satan|Relationship of Jesus and Satan]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The Bible also teaches that Jesus has eternally been God, while Joseph Smith teaches that Jesus had to achieve Godhood."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saint scripture teaches that Jesus is the Eternal God, Alpha and Omega, from everlasting to everlasting. Despite Christ's divinity, He nevertheless was obedient to God His Father, and "received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness" ({{s||DC|93|13}}).

The Saints thus accept the biblical witness that Jesus "increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man" ({{s||Luke|2|52}}). If Jesus increased in wisdom, then there was a time when He had less wisdom than He now has. The Saints also accept the biblical witness that Jesus "learned obedience by the things he suffered" ({{s||Hebrews|5|8}}) and "was in all points tempted as we are" ({{s||Hebrews|4|15}}).

As Paul taught, Jesus meekly obeyed the Father in all things, and accepted a status below the role of God to which He was entitled:

:[Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
:But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
:And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
:Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
:That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
:And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ({{s||Philippians|2|6-11}})

Jesus himself in {{s||John|5|19-20}} declared that, "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son and showeth him all things that himself doeth....” What did Jesus do? He was born of a woman, lived a sinless life, and after atoning for our sins, was glorified with a resurrected body of "flesh and bones" ({{s||Luke|24|36-39}}). If Christ followed the example of his Father, then the implication is clear.

Jesus humbled Himself in obedience to the Father, and was exalted thereafter ({{s||Hebrews|1|8-9}}).
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Did President Hinckley admit that the Church does not worship the Biblical Jesus?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The video makes much of a statement by Church President Gordon B. Hinckley:

:''No I don't believe in the traditional Christ. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the dispensation of the Fullness of Times.''
::<small>—President Gordon B. Hinckley, ''Deseret News'' (20 June 1998): 7. {{ss|url=DVD-25March2007:HinckleySS1}}</small>

It should be emphasized that the "traditions" alluded to by President Hinckley are the non-Biblical creeds. But, members of the Church do not reject the Biblical witness—it is partly ''because'' the creeds are not Biblical that the LDS do not use them.

President Hinckley continues to explain that revelation teaches more about God than philosophical speculation, and insists that he is a Christian, but the video does not quote this material:

:''[Jesus], together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.''
:''Am I Christian? Of course I am. I believe in Christ. I talk of Christ. I pray through Christ. I'm trying to follow Him and live His gospel in my life.''

President Hinckley elsewhere made it clear that we differ with other Christians over the creeds, not over the scriptural witness:

:''As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge is not based on ancient tradition, the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ. Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation who saw before him the great God of the universe and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. They spoke to him. He spoke with Them. He testified openly, unequivocally, and unabashedly of that great vision. It was a vision of the Almighty and of the Redeemer of the world, glorious beyond our understanding but certain and unequivocating in the knowledge which it brought. It is out of that knowledge, rooted deep in the soil of modern revelation, that we, in the words of Nephi, “talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that [we and] our children may know to what source [we] may look for a remission of [our] sins” ({{s|2|Nephi|25|26}}).''
::<small>—{{Ensign1|start=90|author=Gordon B. Hinckley|article=We Look to Christ|date=May 2002}}{{link|url=http://beta.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=69e58c6a47e0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}</small>

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Daniel C. Peterson and Stephen D. Ricks|article=Comparing LDS Beliefs with First-Century Christianity|date=March 1988|start=7}}{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=9649d7630a27b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}
* {{Newera1|author=Stephen E. Robinson|article=Are Mormons Christians?|start=41|date=May 1988}}{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=024644f8f206c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=e0710e2cbc3fb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}

|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Call to Leaders

2007-03-24T23:55:25Z

JanAnderson: changed wording on link

{{DVDHeadingBox|Call to LDS Leaders}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">This portion of the video calls for LDS leaders to stop the supposed deception of Mormonism.

"You’d be the hero of all time to the LDS people if you finally admitted Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Beloved you know that. That Mormonism is not true. The Book of Mormon is not true. Joseph Smith is not true. Joseph Smith deceived you and deceived your people. Don’t go on with this deception. So we pray of you, Mormon leaders, have the courage to admit that you’re wrong." (Floyd McElveen)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This charges that leaders actually know that Joseph Smith was a fraud and that the Book of Mormon is false, and that LDS leaders simply need to ''admit'' the deception and take the steps necessary to lead Mormons out of the Church. Who granted the critics insight into the minds, beliefs, hearts, and souls of the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ?

Critics should recall the admonition of Jesus:

: Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.({{s||Matthew|7|1-2}})

The poisonous accusation that LDS leaders actually know that the Mormonism is false has become fashionable in some anti-Mormon circles. This claim is designed to add credibility to the anti-Mormon accusation that the LDS Church is not only wrong, but deceptive.

The fact is, however, that LDS leaders give of their time (a tremendous amount of time) and talents, because they love Christ, they love God's children, and they believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. Many LDS leaders give up lucrative professions and sacrifice time they could be spending in retirement or with family, to dedicate themselves to the Restored Gospel. They really believe in the teachings of the Church and they labor continuously leading people to Christ and the fulness of the Gospel as found the latter-day church that Christ restored.

Brigham Young, like many Church leaders, repeatedly taught that no member should rely on their leader's convictions— each member must seek a spiritual witness:

:''The First Presidency have of right a great influence over this people; and if we should get out of the way and lead this people to destruction, what a pity it would be! How can you know whether we lead you correctly or not? Can you know by any other power than that of the Holy Ghost? I have uniformly exhorted the people to obtain this living witness each for themselves; then no man on earth can lead them astray.''
::<small>—{{JD1|start=100|vol=6|author=Brigham Young|date=29 November 1857}}</small>
'''To read more''':

* [[Search for the Truth DVD:Call to Leaders:Individual witness|More quotes by Church leaders]] about not being deceived.
* "The Living Christ: Testimony of the Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" {{link|url=http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,163-1-10-1,FF.html}}

|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Call to Leaders

2007-03-24T23:54:26Z

JanAnderson: edited link

{{DVDHeadingBox|Call to LDS Leaders}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">This portion of the video calls for LDS leaders to stop the supposed deception of Mormonism.

"You’d be the hero of all time to the LDS people if you finally admitted Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Beloved you know that. That Mormonism is not true. The Book of Mormon is not true. Joseph Smith is not true. Joseph Smith deceived you and deceived your people. Don’t go on with this deception. So we pray of you, Mormon leaders, have the courage to admit that you’re wrong." (Floyd McElveen)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This charges that leaders actually know that Joseph Smith was a fraud and that the Book of Mormon is false, and that LDS leaders simply need to ''admit'' the deception and take the steps necessary to lead Mormons out of the Church. Who granted the critics insight into the minds, beliefs, hearts, and souls of the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ?

Critics should recall the admonition of Jesus:

: Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.({{s||Matthew|7|1-2}})

The poisonous accusation that LDS leaders actually know that the Mormonism is false has become fashionable in some anti-Mormon circles. This claim is designed to add credibility to the anti-Mormon accusation that the LDS Church is not only wrong, but deceptive.

The fact is, however, that LDS leaders give of their time (a tremendous amount of time) and talents, because they love Christ, they love God's children, and they believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. Many LDS leaders give up lucrative professions and sacrifice time they could be spending in retirement or with family, to dedicate themselves to the Restored Gospel. They really believe in the teachings of the Church and they labor continuously leading people to Christ and the fulness of the Gospel as found the latter-day church that Christ restored.

Brigham Young, like many Church leaders, repeatedly taught that no member should rely on their leader's convictions— each member must seek a spiritual witness:

:''The First Presidency have of right a great influence over this people; and if we should get out of the way and lead this people to destruction, what a pity it would be! How can you know whether we lead you correctly or not? Can you know by any other power than that of the Holy Ghost? I have uniformly exhorted the people to obtain this living witness each for themselves; then no man on earth can lead them astray.''
::<small>—{{JD1|start=100|vol=6|author=Brigham Young|date=29 November 1857}}</small>
'''To read more''':

* [[Search for the Truth DVD:Call to Leaders:Individual witness|More quotes by Church leaders]] about deception.
* "The Living Christ: Testimony of the Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" {{link|url=http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,163-1-10-1,FF.html}}

|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Credits

2007-03-24T05:08:15Z

JanAnderson: Spelled out FLDS

{{DVDHeadingBox|Credits}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

It may be helpful to those viewing the video to know a little more about some of the people who participated in the making of this video. The credits list people associated with the production of the video. There is one section of the credits, entitled "Special Thanks" that lists people who provided commentary on the video.

Individuals are highlighted, below, in alphabetical order.

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Marvin Cowan</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:CowanMarvin.png]]<br />''Marvin Cowan''
</div>
Marvin is the director or owner of Utah Christian Publications. This organization sells exclusivly anti-Mormon books and materials. Many of the books sold by Utah Christian Publications are written by the other people listed in the credits of this DVD.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Scott Gallatin</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:GallatinScott.png]]<br />''Scott Gallatin''
</div>
Scott Gallatin is the pastor of Calvary Chapel Finger Lakes in Farmington, New York.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Dennis and Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Dennis and Rauni Higley are anti-Mormons living in Sandy, Utah. Rauni is originally a Finnish citizen and served as a Mormon missionary in Finland. Dennis is an American who also served as a Mormon missionary in Finland. They eventually met and were married in Utah. Together, they left the Church in the 1980s and became Evangelical Christians. They later established HIS (He is Savior) Ministries.

<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:HigleyDR.png]]<br />''Dennis and Rauni Higley''
</div>
:The Higleys have been highly influenced by the Evangelical countercult arguments of the 1980s. During Rauni's stay in Finland in 1984, for example, she was instrumental in the inception of a highly sensationalistic article on the Mormons in a religious magazine. The material was heavily drawn from arguments in the book and movie ''The God Makers,'' with in-temple screenshots provided as illustrations. Some of the article’s statements convey the mood: "The truth is kept secret on purpose. It is not meant but for the few and chosen, for Mormonism is a pagan religion tied to secret doctrines, mysteries, and occultism. On its most secret levels, a Luciferian doctrine is unveiled as the background...Mormonism is based on a secret for the simple reason of the truth being too gruesome for a normal, ordinary person. Joseph Smith founded his religion based on completely mind-boggling tales."
::<small>—Kim Östman, "An International Perspective: Opposition to Mormonism in Finland, 1845-2006" (presentation at the 2006 FAIR Conference).</small>

In 2004 the Higleys wrote a thirty-page booklet, ''The Truth about Mormonism,'' published by The Berean Call, a ministry outlet closely associated with Dave Hunt.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Tim and Karen Howard</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Tim and Karen Howard are former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Dave Hunt has been actively involved in the self-styled countercult movement for over two decades. He is the coauthor, with Ed Decker, of both the original and the "updated and expanded" version of ''The God Makers.'' According to common marketing hype, he is "an internationally recognized cult expert." The 1984 edition says he's the author of 10 books in 20 languages, and the 1994 edition gives him "20-plus books [with] combined sales of more than 3 million copies."

<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:HuntDave.png]]<br />''Dave Hunt''
</div>
This, of course, still does not answer who Mr. Hunt really is—what credentials he has to speak to Christianity in general and Mormonism in particular. Mr. Hunt's lack of credentials have been problematic to many, if not to the video's producers.

In commenting on the "problem of authority and credibility" within the Christian countercult movement (of which ''Search for the Truth'' is a product), one non-LDS scholar comments specifically on Dave Hunt's place within the movement:

:Robert Wise begins his critique of ''The Seduction of Christianity'' in what seems an obvious, if often overlooked, place: who are Dave Hunt and Thomas Aloysius McMahon? Noting that "Hunt and McMahon define truth in a way peculiar to themselves," Wise continues: "We are never told who Hunt and McMahon are nor what credentials they have. Apparently, Hunt is a self-certified authority on cults" (1986: 40). DeMar and Leithart complain similarly: "That Dave Hunt, a man with a bachelor's degree in mathematics, is now the most prominent theologian of the dispensationalist movement...indicates the extent of the crisis" (1988: xvii).
::<small>—Douglas E. Cowan, ''Bearing False Witness: An Introduction to the Christian Countercult'' (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger Publishers, 2003), 199.</small>

Mr. Hunt's work relative to ''The God Makers'' was characterized by the non-Mormon US National Council of Christians and Jews as follows:

:"The Godmakers" ... does not, in our opinion, fairly portray the Mormon Church, Mormon belief, or Mormon history. It makes extensive use of 'half-truth', faulty generalizations, erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism…not reflective of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith...It appears to us to be a basically unfair and untruthful presentation of what Mormons really believe and practice.''
::<small>— National Council of Christians and Jews, "Programs in Pluralism," April 1994.</small>{{link|url=http://www.lightplanet.com/response/nccj.htm}}

Mr. Hunt believes that his version of Christianity is the only true version, and that all those who disagree are following religions that have their roots in Satanism. Included in his cadre of false religions (besides Mormonism) is Roman Catholicism. According to one non-Mormon observer,

:[Hunt] presents the darkest possible version of Roman Catholic history, laying responsibility squarely at Rome's door for, among other things, the rise of Nazism in Germany (elsewhere he claims Hinduism is responsible; cf. Hunt 1983); the implementation of the Final Solution (Hunt 1994:265-93); and the Ustaschi (Croat) massacres of Yugoslavian Serbs in the early 1940s (Hunt 1994: 297-307). For Hunt...the syllogism is simple: Because there were at least nominal Catholics involved in these atrocities, therefore the Roman Catholic Church as an institution supported and encouraged their actions--a convenient, monocausal explanation for these various attrocities.
::<small>—Douglas E. Cowan, ''Bearing False Witness: An Introduction to the Christian Countercult'' (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger Publishers, 2003), 187.</small>

Hunt's intolerant views don't extend solely to those in other religions. The same author goes on to describe his overtly misogynistic tendencies:

:For Hunt there is no doubt that the Roman Catholic Church plays a pivotal role in the end-times drama. She is the "Great Whore of Babylon," allegedly prophesied in the Revelation to St. John (17:3-6)—the "woman who rides the beast." For Hunt, as well, there is no doubt why it is a ''woman'' who rides the beast.
::Worldwide, today's women are asserting themselves as never before in history. Contrary to popular opinion, "women instigate more domestic violence [and] hit men more frequently and more severely [than men hit them]" and violence is far more frequent in lesbian relationships than between husband and wife. Women are taking over what were once men's jobs, and there is a growing acceptance of women at the highest levels of leadership in business, government, and religion. Only God could have given John, 1900 years ago, a vision that so fits out day—a ''woman'' in control. From current trends, it seems inevitable that a ''woman'' must ride the beast. (Hunt 1994: 456; glosses and emphasis in the original)
:There are two points of interest here, one methodological, the other substantive. First, while arguments like this surface from time to time, Hunt's [sic] takes his citation of domestic violence statistics from ''USA Today'' (June 29, 1994; Hunt 1994: 541 n.20) rather than a recognized research source. In addition, as is often the case, Hunt misrepresents the reference he does use. On that date, ''USA Today'' published three articles related to domestic violence—none of which contain the statistics Hunt cites, and two of which contain information in direct contradiction to it. Second, one is led to wonder about Hunt's thinly veiled misogynism, given that his chief candidate for the Whore of Babylon is a church that has yet to ordain its first woman priest.
::<small>—Douglas E. Cowan, ''Bearing False Witness: An Introduction to the Christian Countercult'' (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger Publishers, 2003), 187-188.</small>

'''To read more:'''
* Gilbert W. Scharffs, "The Truth About 'The Godmakers'" (a line-by-line refutation) {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/The_God_Makers/}}
* Craig L. Foster, "Old Themes and Stereotypes Never Die: The Unchanging Ways of Anti-Mormons," {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/conf/2003FosC.html}}
* Robert Brown and Rosemary Brown, ''They Lie In Wait to Deceive: Vol. 4'' {{fairlink|url=http://www.fair-lds.org/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=FAIR-TLIW4}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:KramerJoel.png]]<br />''Joel Kramer''
</div>
Joel Kramer is the Director of Living Hope Ministries from Brigham City, Utah. Their mission statement is: "Living Hope Ministries exists to share biblical truths with Mormons, and to educate and equip Christian individuals, ministries and churches to reach Mormons for the biblical Jesus Christ. " Living Hope Ministries have produced several anti Mormon DVDs.

Joel has been recently arrested for disorderly conduct as he refused to comply with a police officer as he was allegedly unlawfully video taping an LDS pageant. Of course just being arrested may not mean anything, but it certainly was important to the writers of this DVD when talking about Joseph Smith.

'''To read more:'''
* Brant Gardner, "Behind the Mask, Behind the Curtain: Uncovering the Illusion'' (Review of ''The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon'' {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Bible_vs_the_Book_of_Mormon_Video.html}}
*{{FR-18-1-3}}
*{{FR-18-2-6}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Charles Larson</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:LarsonCharles.png]]<br />''Charles Larson''
</div>
Larson is the author of the well-known but deeply flawed anti-Mormon book <i>"By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus": A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri</i>. This book has been reviewed by LDS Egyptologists who hold degrees in the field. One reviewer summed up Larson's work:

:''Larson's historical method is as follows: Invent evidence, read minds, attribute motives, misquote sources, argue from circumstantial evidence—or better yet—argue from no evidence....''
:''If Larson stumbles as a historian, he falls flat on his face as an Egyptologist. He betrays no knowledge of any foreign language, yet offers to guide us through Egyptian, "a unique area of study that is extremely difficult to master."''
::<small>—John Gee, "A Tragedy of Errors," p. 99.</small>

The only qualifications listed for Larson at his publisher's web site are "former Mormon and Brigham Young University graduate." If the producers of the video can dismiss trained Egyptologists only because they are Mormon, is it reasonable to likewise dismiss critics like Larson because of his religious beliefs? Or should we add to those critical religious beliefs the fact that he is not trained in Egyptology at all? The producers willingly apply a double standard here.

'''To read more:'''
*{{FR-4-1-15}}
*{{FR-4-1-16}}
*[[Charles Larson|Reviews of Charles Larson]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Living Hope Ministries</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Living Hope Ministries is a Utah-based anti-Mormon ministry. They exist solely to lead Latter-day Saints out of Mormonism and to prevent other people from becoming Mormons. To accomplish their goals they have produced and distributed several anti-Mormon videos and plan on doing even more.

Their videos display the same superficiality, lack of respect, and dishonesty as ''Search for the Truth''.

* '''To read more:'''
* Brant Gardner, "Behind the Mask, Behind the Curtain: Uncovering the Illusion'' (Review of ''The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon'' {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Bible_vs_the_Book_of_Mormon_Video.html}}
*{{FR-18-1-3}}
*{{FR-18-2-6}}

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:MackertBrian.png]]<br />''Brian Mackert''
</div>
Brian J. Mackert was born a member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints church (FLDS), which believes that the LDS Church is in apostasy. According to his online biography, his great grandfather was excommunicated from the LDS Church in 1934 after publishing a book in support of polygamy, and his grandparents were excommunicated because they "would not comply with the current LDS Churches [sic] position on polygamy."

After going through a spiritual crisis in his late teens, Mackert abandoned the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS)and joined the LDS Church right after he entered the Marine Corps. Within a year, in his words, "I became aware that I could never say with full confidence that the LDS Church was the true church. There were too many doubts that I had..." Shortly thereafter he stopped attending the LDS Church and became converted to born-again Evangelical Christianity and started attending local Baptist churches.

According to Brian's Web site:

:''Brian is now a licensed minister working in Prison Ministry preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and sharing the forgiveness that only comes through the shed blood of Jesus Christ with prisoners and especially sex offenders.''
:''Brian is available upon request to give presentations concerning the beliefs, practices of Mormons and to give witnessing tips for those wanting to reach the Mormon People with the true gospel of Jesus Christ.''

One must wonder how much expertise one could gain in Mormonism after being raised in a different church and only belonging to the LDS Church for approximately a year.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jon McCartney</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Jon McCartney is pastor of the First Baptist Church in Tooele, Utah.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:McElveen.png]]<br />''Floyd McElveen''
</div>
Floyd McElveen wrote a book that was distributed in Utah about 20 years ago. On the cover it says ''God's Word, Final, Infallible and Forever'', but inside it is actually 3 different books written by Floyd: the one on the cover, ''The Mormon Illusion'', and ''From Mormon Illusion to God's Love''. The book was published by Gospel Truths Ministries in Grand Rapids, MI. In the author bio it says he "is the national evangelist for the Conservative Baptist Home Mission Society."

McElveen also contributed a chapter to Charles Larson's flawed and inadequate ''By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus''.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Roger Oakland</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:OaklandRoger.png]]<br />''Roger Oakland''
</div>
Roger Oakland is with Understanding the Times International, a countercult ministry. He has a number of articles at the organization's Web site, including many that attack Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, science, and New Age religious movements.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Phil Roberts</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:RobertsPhil.png]]<br />''Phil Roberts''
</div>
Phil Roberts is president of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Kansas City. He has written or contributed to at least two anti-Mormon books—''Mormonism Unmasked'' and ''The Counterfeit Gospel of Mormonism.'' (The latter he wrote with Francis J. Beckwith, Norman Geisler, Ron Rhodes, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner.)

Roberts served as director of the Interfaith Witness Department of the North American Mission Board for the Southern Baptist Convention where, in 1998, he was responsible for producing the video ''The Mormon Puzzle.'' Roberts has also authored several other articles that are clearly anti-Mormon in tone and focus.

'''To read more:'''
* {{FR-10-1-12}}
* {{FR-18-2-189}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Sandra Tanner</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Sandra Tanner and her late husband, Jerald Tanner, are certainly among the most prolific anti-Mormon authors. However, non-Mormon scholars of LDS issues have noted that the Tanners display a consistent bias in their work:

<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:TannerSandra.png]]<br />''Sandra Tanner''
</div>
:''[The Tanners] always assume the worst possible motives in assessing the actions of Mormon leaders, even when those leaders faced extremely complex problems with no simple solutions.... Every bit of evidence, even if it could be most plausibly presented in a positive way, is represented as yet another nail in the coffin being prepared for the Mormon Church. There is no spectrum of colors, only blacks and whites, good guys and villains in the Tanners' published writings.... The Tanners have repeatedly assumed a holier-than-thou stance, refusing to be fair in applying the same debate standards of absolute rectitude which they demand of Mormonism to their own actions, writings, and beliefs.''
::<small>—{{Dialogue1|author=Lawrence Foster|article=Career Apostates: Reflections on the Works of Jerald and Sandra Tanner|vol=17|num=2|date=Summer 1984|start=45|end=46}}</small>

Sandra Tanner's research is agenda-driven and unreliable. Sincere seekers of the truth about Latter-day Saint beliefs and history deserve more reliable sources.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Jerald_and_Sandra_Tanner|Reviews of Jerald and Sandra Tanner]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Chip Thompson</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:ThompsonChip.png]]<br />''Chip Thompson''
</div>
Chip Thompson director of Tri-Grace Ministries in Ephraim, UT. Tri-Grace Ministries runs a college house facility, which is "intended to be safe haven for all Christian students who attend Snow College." His advisory board includes:
* Bill Mckeever, (Mormon Research Ministries, Sandy, UT)
* Luke Wilson, (Institute for Religious Research, Grand Rapids, MI)
* Keith Walker, (Evidence Ministries, San Antonio, TX)
* Bob Betts, (Board Member, Concerned Christians, Mesa, AZ)
* Timothy Oliver, (Utah Director, Watchman Fellowship, Santaquin, UT)

It is curious that a facility for college students should have a board composed entirely of professional anti-Mormons.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">John Whitcomb</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:WhitcombJohn.png]]<br />''John Whitcomb''
</div>
Dr. John Whitcomb, Th.D., is president of Whitcomb Ministries and former professor of Theology and Old Testament studies at Graceland Theological Seminary. Whitcomb is also co-author of ''The Genesis Flood'' which helped play a founding role in the modern "Creation Science" movement (although Whitcomb is a theologian rather than a scientist). Whitcomb believes in a young earth, a global flood, and an inerrant Bible that should be interpreted literally. He also claims that there were 1,000 different kinds of dinosaurs on the ark and he is critical of not only evolution, but also of progressive creationism and intelligent design.

Despite the fact that DNA disproves these beliefs with far more rigor than the Book of Mormon, Dr. Whitcomb has agreed to appear in this DVD which makes appeals to DNA science.

|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Credits

2007-03-24T05:06:22Z

JanAnderson: Removed sentence that could be snarky (even tho true) -Kramer section: "Since it was so important to them, we thought it only fair to include it here."

{{DVDHeadingBox|Credits}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

It may be helpful to those viewing the video to know a little more about some of the people who participated in the making of this video. The credits list people associated with the production of the video. There is one section of the credits, entitled "Special Thanks" that lists people who provided commentary on the video.

Individuals are highlighted, below, in alphabetical order.

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Marvin Cowan</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:CowanMarvin.png]]<br />''Marvin Cowan''
</div>
Marvin is the director or owner of Utah Christian Publications. This organization sells exclusivly anti-Mormon books and materials. Many of the books sold by Utah Christian Publications are written by the other people listed in the credits of this DVD.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Scott Gallatin</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:GallatinScott.png]]<br />''Scott Gallatin''
</div>
Scott Gallatin is the pastor of Calvary Chapel Finger Lakes in Farmington, New York.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Dennis and Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Dennis and Rauni Higley are anti-Mormons living in Sandy, Utah. Rauni is originally a Finnish citizen and served as a Mormon missionary in Finland. Dennis is an American who also served as a Mormon missionary in Finland. They eventually met and were married in Utah. Together, they left the Church in the 1980s and became Evangelical Christians. They later established HIS (He is Savior) Ministries.

<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:HigleyDR.png]]<br />''Dennis and Rauni Higley''
</div>
:The Higleys have been highly influenced by the Evangelical countercult arguments of the 1980s. During Rauni's stay in Finland in 1984, for example, she was instrumental in the inception of a highly sensationalistic article on the Mormons in a religious magazine. The material was heavily drawn from arguments in the book and movie ''The God Makers,'' with in-temple screenshots provided as illustrations. Some of the article’s statements convey the mood: "The truth is kept secret on purpose. It is not meant but for the few and chosen, for Mormonism is a pagan religion tied to secret doctrines, mysteries, and occultism. On its most secret levels, a Luciferian doctrine is unveiled as the background...Mormonism is based on a secret for the simple reason of the truth being too gruesome for a normal, ordinary person. Joseph Smith founded his religion based on completely mind-boggling tales."
::<small>—Kim Östman, "An International Perspective: Opposition to Mormonism in Finland, 1845-2006" (presentation at the 2006 FAIR Conference).</small>

In 2004 the Higleys wrote a thirty-page booklet, ''The Truth about Mormonism,'' published by The Berean Call, a ministry outlet closely associated with Dave Hunt.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Tim and Karen Howard</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Tim and Karen Howard are former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Dave Hunt has been actively involved in the self-styled countercult movement for over two decades. He is the coauthor, with Ed Decker, of both the original and the "updated and expanded" version of ''The God Makers.'' According to common marketing hype, he is "an internationally recognized cult expert." The 1984 edition says he's the author of 10 books in 20 languages, and the 1994 edition gives him "20-plus books [with] combined sales of more than 3 million copies."

<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:HuntDave.png]]<br />''Dave Hunt''
</div>
This, of course, still does not answer who Mr. Hunt really is—what credentials he has to speak to Christianity in general and Mormonism in particular. Mr. Hunt's lack of credentials have been problematic to many, if not to the video's producers.

In commenting on the "problem of authority and credibility" within the Christian countercult movement (of which ''Search for the Truth'' is a product), one non-LDS scholar comments specifically on Dave Hunt's place within the movement:

:Robert Wise begins his critique of ''The Seduction of Christianity'' in what seems an obvious, if often overlooked, place: who are Dave Hunt and Thomas Aloysius McMahon? Noting that "Hunt and McMahon define truth in a way peculiar to themselves," Wise continues: "We are never told who Hunt and McMahon are nor what credentials they have. Apparently, Hunt is a self-certified authority on cults" (1986: 40). DeMar and Leithart complain similarly: "That Dave Hunt, a man with a bachelor's degree in mathematics, is now the most prominent theologian of the dispensationalist movement...indicates the extent of the crisis" (1988: xvii).
::<small>—Douglas E. Cowan, ''Bearing False Witness: An Introduction to the Christian Countercult'' (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger Publishers, 2003), 199.</small>

Mr. Hunt's work relative to ''The God Makers'' was characterized by the non-Mormon US National Council of Christians and Jews as follows:

:"The Godmakers" ... does not, in our opinion, fairly portray the Mormon Church, Mormon belief, or Mormon history. It makes extensive use of 'half-truth', faulty generalizations, erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism…not reflective of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith...It appears to us to be a basically unfair and untruthful presentation of what Mormons really believe and practice.''
::<small>— National Council of Christians and Jews, "Programs in Pluralism," April 1994.</small>{{link|url=http://www.lightplanet.com/response/nccj.htm}}

Mr. Hunt believes that his version of Christianity is the only true version, and that all those who disagree are following religions that have their roots in Satanism. Included in his cadre of false religions (besides Mormonism) is Roman Catholicism. According to one non-Mormon observer,

:[Hunt] presents the darkest possible version of Roman Catholic history, laying responsibility squarely at Rome's door for, among other things, the rise of Nazism in Germany (elsewhere he claims Hinduism is responsible; cf. Hunt 1983); the implementation of the Final Solution (Hunt 1994:265-93); and the Ustaschi (Croat) massacres of Yugoslavian Serbs in the early 1940s (Hunt 1994: 297-307). For Hunt...the syllogism is simple: Because there were at least nominal Catholics involved in these atrocities, therefore the Roman Catholic Church as an institution supported and encouraged their actions--a convenient, monocausal explanation for these various attrocities.
::<small>—Douglas E. Cowan, ''Bearing False Witness: An Introduction to the Christian Countercult'' (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger Publishers, 2003), 187.</small>

Hunt's intolerant views don't extend solely to those in other religions. The same author goes on to describe his overtly misogynistic tendencies:

:For Hunt there is no doubt that the Roman Catholic Church plays a pivotal role in the end-times drama. She is the "Great Whore of Babylon," allegedly prophesied in the Revelation to St. John (17:3-6)—the "woman who rides the beast." For Hunt, as well, there is no doubt why it is a ''woman'' who rides the beast.
::Worldwide, today's women are asserting themselves as never before in history. Contrary to popular opinion, "women instigate more domestic violence [and] hit men more frequently and more severely [than men hit them]" and violence is far more frequent in lesbian relationships than between husband and wife. Women are taking over what were once men's jobs, and there is a growing acceptance of women at the highest levels of leadership in business, government, and religion. Only God could have given John, 1900 years ago, a vision that so fits out day—a ''woman'' in control. From current trends, it seems inevitable that a ''woman'' must ride the beast. (Hunt 1994: 456; glosses and emphasis in the original)
:There are two points of interest here, one methodological, the other substantive. First, while arguments like this surface from time to time, Hunt's [sic] takes his citation of domestic violence statistics from ''USA Today'' (June 29, 1994; Hunt 1994: 541 n.20) rather than a recognized research source. In addition, as is often the case, Hunt misrepresents the reference he does use. On that date, ''USA Today'' published three articles related to domestic violence—none of which contain the statistics Hunt cites, and two of which contain information in direct contradiction to it. Second, one is led to wonder about Hunt's thinly veiled misogynism, given that his chief candidate for the Whore of Babylon is a church that has yet to ordain its first woman priest.
::<small>—Douglas E. Cowan, ''Bearing False Witness: An Introduction to the Christian Countercult'' (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger Publishers, 2003), 187-188.</small>

'''To read more:'''
* Gilbert W. Scharffs, "The Truth About 'The Godmakers'" (a line-by-line refutation) {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/The_God_Makers/}}
* Craig L. Foster, "Old Themes and Stereotypes Never Die: The Unchanging Ways of Anti-Mormons," {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/conf/2003FosC.html}}
* Robert Brown and Rosemary Brown, ''They Lie In Wait to Deceive: Vol. 4'' {{fairlink|url=http://www.fair-lds.org/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=FAIR-TLIW4}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:KramerJoel.png]]<br />''Joel Kramer''
</div>
Joel Kramer is the Director of Living Hope Ministries from Brigham City, Utah. Their mission statement is: "Living Hope Ministries exists to share biblical truths with Mormons, and to educate and equip Christian individuals, ministries and churches to reach Mormons for the biblical Jesus Christ. " Living Hope Ministries have produced several anti Mormon DVDs.

Joel has been recently arrested for disorderly conduct as he refused to comply with a police officer as he was allegedly unlawfully video taping an LDS pageant. Of course just being arrested may not mean anything, but it certainly was important to the writers of this DVD when talking about Joseph Smith.

'''To read more:'''
* Brant Gardner, "Behind the Mask, Behind the Curtain: Uncovering the Illusion'' (Review of ''The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon'' {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Bible_vs_the_Book_of_Mormon_Video.html}}
*{{FR-18-1-3}}
*{{FR-18-2-6}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Charles Larson</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:LarsonCharles.png]]<br />''Charles Larson''
</div>
Larson is the author of the well-known but deeply flawed anti-Mormon book <i>"By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus": A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri</i>. This book has been reviewed by LDS Egyptologists who hold degrees in the field. One reviewer summed up Larson's work:

:''Larson's historical method is as follows: Invent evidence, read minds, attribute motives, misquote sources, argue from circumstantial evidence—or better yet—argue from no evidence....''
:''If Larson stumbles as a historian, he falls flat on his face as an Egyptologist. He betrays no knowledge of any foreign language, yet offers to guide us through Egyptian, "a unique area of study that is extremely difficult to master."''
::<small>—John Gee, "A Tragedy of Errors," p. 99.</small>

The only qualifications listed for Larson at his publisher's web site are "former Mormon and Brigham Young University graduate." If the producers of the video can dismiss trained Egyptologists only because they are Mormon, is it reasonable to likewise dismiss critics like Larson because of his religious beliefs? Or should we add to those critical religious beliefs the fact that he is not trained in Egyptology at all? The producers willingly apply a double standard here.

'''To read more:'''
*{{FR-4-1-15}}
*{{FR-4-1-16}}
*[[Charles Larson|Reviews of Charles Larson]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Living Hope Ministries</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Living Hope Ministries is a Utah-based anti-Mormon ministry. They exist solely to lead Latter-day Saints out of Mormonism and to prevent other people from becoming Mormons. To accomplish their goals they have produced and distributed several anti-Mormon videos and plan on doing even more.

Their videos display the same superficiality, lack of respect, and dishonesty as ''Search for the Truth''.

* '''To read more:'''
* Brant Gardner, "Behind the Mask, Behind the Curtain: Uncovering the Illusion'' (Review of ''The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon'' {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Bible_vs_the_Book_of_Mormon_Video.html}}
*{{FR-18-1-3}}
*{{FR-18-2-6}}

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:MackertBrian.png]]<br />''Brian Mackert''
</div>
Brian J. Mackert was born a member of the FLDS church, which believes that the LDS Church is in apostasy. According to his online biography, his great grandfather was excommunicated from the LDS Church in 1934 after publishing a book in support of polygamy, and his grandparents were excommunicated because they "would not comply with the current LDS Churches [sic] position on polygamy."

After going through a spiritual crisis in his late teens, Mackert abandoned the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS)and joined the LDS Church right after he entered the Marine Corps. Within a year, in his words, "I became aware that I could never say with full confidence that the LDS Church was the true church. There were too many doubts that I had..." Shortly thereafter he stopped attending the LDS Church and became converted to born-again Evangelical Christianity and started attending local Baptist churches.

According to Brian's Web site:

:''Brian is now a licensed minister working in Prison Ministry preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and sharing the forgiveness that only comes through the shed blood of Jesus Christ with prisoners and especially sex offenders.''
:''Brian is available upon request to give presentations concerning the beliefs, practices of Mormons and to give witnessing tips for those wanting to reach the Mormon People with the true gospel of Jesus Christ.''

One must wonder how much expertise one could gain in Mormonism after being raised in a different church and only belonging to the LDS Church for approximately a year.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jon McCartney</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Jon McCartney is pastor of the First Baptist Church in Tooele, Utah.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:McElveen.png]]<br />''Floyd McElveen''
</div>
Floyd McElveen wrote a book that was distributed in Utah about 20 years ago. On the cover it says ''God's Word, Final, Infallible and Forever'', but inside it is actually 3 different books written by Floyd: the one on the cover, ''The Mormon Illusion'', and ''From Mormon Illusion to God's Love''. The book was published by Gospel Truths Ministries in Grand Rapids, MI. In the author bio it says he "is the national evangelist for the Conservative Baptist Home Mission Society."

McElveen also contributed a chapter to Charles Larson's flawed and inadequate ''By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus''.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Roger Oakland</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:OaklandRoger.png]]<br />''Roger Oakland''
</div>
Roger Oakland is with Understanding the Times International, a countercult ministry. He has a number of articles at the organization's Web site, including many that attack Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, science, and New Age religious movements.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Phil Roberts</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:RobertsPhil.png]]<br />''Phil Roberts''
</div>
Phil Roberts is president of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Kansas City. He has written or contributed to at least two anti-Mormon books—''Mormonism Unmasked'' and ''The Counterfeit Gospel of Mormonism.'' (The latter he wrote with Francis J. Beckwith, Norman Geisler, Ron Rhodes, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner.)

Roberts served as director of the Interfaith Witness Department of the North American Mission Board for the Southern Baptist Convention where, in 1998, he was responsible for producing the video ''The Mormon Puzzle.'' Roberts has also authored several other articles that are clearly anti-Mormon in tone and focus.

'''To read more:'''
* {{FR-10-1-12}}
* {{FR-18-2-189}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Sandra Tanner</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Sandra Tanner and her late husband, Jerald Tanner, are certainly among the most prolific anti-Mormon authors. However, non-Mormon scholars of LDS issues have noted that the Tanners display a consistent bias in their work:

<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:TannerSandra.png]]<br />''Sandra Tanner''
</div>
:''[The Tanners] always assume the worst possible motives in assessing the actions of Mormon leaders, even when those leaders faced extremely complex problems with no simple solutions.... Every bit of evidence, even if it could be most plausibly presented in a positive way, is represented as yet another nail in the coffin being prepared for the Mormon Church. There is no spectrum of colors, only blacks and whites, good guys and villains in the Tanners' published writings.... The Tanners have repeatedly assumed a holier-than-thou stance, refusing to be fair in applying the same debate standards of absolute rectitude which they demand of Mormonism to their own actions, writings, and beliefs.''
::<small>—{{Dialogue1|author=Lawrence Foster|article=Career Apostates: Reflections on the Works of Jerald and Sandra Tanner|vol=17|num=2|date=Summer 1984|start=45|end=46}}</small>

Sandra Tanner's research is agenda-driven and unreliable. Sincere seekers of the truth about Latter-day Saint beliefs and history deserve more reliable sources.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Jerald_and_Sandra_Tanner|Reviews of Jerald and Sandra Tanner]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Chip Thompson</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:ThompsonChip.png]]<br />''Chip Thompson''
</div>
Chip Thompson director of Tri-Grace Ministries in Ephraim, UT. Tri-Grace Ministries runs a college house facility, which is "intended to be safe haven for all Christian students who attend Snow College." His advisory board includes:
* Bill Mckeever, (Mormon Research Ministries, Sandy, UT)
* Luke Wilson, (Institute for Religious Research, Grand Rapids, MI)
* Keith Walker, (Evidence Ministries, San Antonio, TX)
* Bob Betts, (Board Member, Concerned Christians, Mesa, AZ)
* Timothy Oliver, (Utah Director, Watchman Fellowship, Santaquin, UT)

It is curious that a facility for college students should have a board composed entirely of professional anti-Mormons.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">John Whitcomb</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:WhitcombJohn.png]]<br />''John Whitcomb''
</div>
Dr. John Whitcomb, Th.D., is president of Whitcomb Ministries and former professor of Theology and Old Testament studies at Graceland Theological Seminary. Whitcomb is also co-author of ''The Genesis Flood'' which helped play a founding role in the modern "Creation Science" movement (although Whitcomb is a theologian rather than a scientist). Whitcomb believes in a young earth, a global flood, and an inerrant Bible that should be interpreted literally. He also claims that there were 1,000 different kinds of dinosaurs on the ark and he is critical of not only evolution, but also of progressive creationism and intelligent design.

Despite the fact that DNA disproves these beliefs with far more rigor than the Book of Mormon, Dr. Whitcomb has agreed to appear in this DVD which makes appeals to DNA science.

|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Letter (annotated)

2007-03-24T05:01:40Z

JanAnderson: fixed typos, grammar, removed a hyphen

{{DVDHeadingBox|Letter of Instruction to Distributors}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">This letter was provided to those who were to distribute the DVD. It provides a glimpse of their attitudes toward the Church of Jesus Christ, and the members whom they claim to be treating with "love." This version of the letter has comments added in <font color="blue">blue</font> by FAIR. Click [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:letter|here]] to see the letter without comments.</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
PLEASE COPY THIS LETTER AND HAND IT OUT WITH EACH SAMPLE DVD

Dear Fellow Christian,

Enclosed is the sample copy of the brand new Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith DVD.

CAUTION: This video is to be viewed by CHRISTIANS ONLY until AFTER the nation-wide distribution which is scheduled for March 25, 2007. In-other-words, do not allow any Mormon people to view the video or learn of our intended evangelistic outreach until after March 25, 2007.

Why such extreme caution? If the leadership of the Mormon cult learns of our plans, they will publicly instruct their people not to watch the video and many Mormons will blindly obey.

<font color="blue">
:The DVD itself claims that LDS leaders were given the video for a chance to respond. But, here they tell distributors that they are carefully keeping the DVD a secret so that leaders will be unable to prepare their members.

:Why are they lying? (See discussion [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Summary|here]].)
</font>

ABOUT THE NATION-WIDE DISTRIBUTION AND EVANGELISTIC OUTREACH:

All that is required - HANGING THE DVD ON DOOR KNOBS THE VIDEO DOES THE TALKING and, in fact, we do not advise or encourage interaction with Mormon people until sometime after the distribution is complete.

<font color="blue">
:One purpose of the DVD is "boundary maintenance." This means that it is a tool used by some conservative Protestant groups to ensure that ''their flock'' will not become interested in Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ. The DVD is targeted partly at an evangelical audience, and to remain convinced that the Mormons are an un-Christian cult, nothing must challenge the video's version of what Latter-day Saints "really" believe.

:Therefore, it is important that their distributors not discuss these issues with Latter-day Saints, lest they learn that the Saints believe a great many of the same things as they do about Christ. (See discussion [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Who Is Jesus?|here]].)
</font>

The reason for this approach is because the Mormon Church instructs its members to not receive any materials which are not "faith promoting" in regard to Mormonism. By simply hanging the DVD on doors, Mormon people do not have the option of refusing to accept it. After the DVD is in their home many will, out of curiosity, watch it.

<font color="blue">
:The Church encourages its members not to ''purchase'' anti-Mormon propaganda, for this only contributes money to their cause.

:However, there is no prohibition on reading material critical of the Church. In the ''Ensign'', the Church's official magazine, the question was asked, "Some people say it is best to leave alone materials that claim to 'expose' the Church and its teachings. What counsel has been given on this? How do we respond when a friend comes to us with questions found in such materials?" The reply given included these recommendations:

::''[Cautions about those who sell material aiming to destroy the Church] must not be interpreted to mean that the Church is against honest scholarship or has anything to fear or hide. Nor does the Church ban literature, but Latter-day Saints should be wise in choosing what to read.''
::''This cautionary counsel should not be misconstrued to justify laziness on our part in seeking answers, or giving glib, superficial replies when someone sincerely wants to know the truth after being exposed to anti-LDS material. Church critics and enemies should not be permitted to make what Elder Neal A. Maxwell of the Quorum of the Twelve has sometimes called "uncontested slam dunks."
::''Latter-day Saints should be sufficiently grounded in their testimonies and knowledge of Church doctrine and history that they can answer questions in a non-contentious and informative way. Elder Marvin J. Ashton of the Quorum of the Twelve has instructed Church members not to retaliate against attacks. "We encourage all our members to refuse to become anti-anti-Mormon," he said (''Ensign'', Nov. 1992, p. 63). Paul taught that coming to Christ requires "speaking the truth in love" (Eph. 4:15).
::''The First Presidency has encouraged Church members to convey their response to questions and criticism "in the form of a positive explanation of the doctrines and practices of the Church" (''Church News'', 18 Dec. 1983, p. 2).
::''Members should invite those with questions about Church doctrine and practices to read latter-day scriptures and to study the restored gospel, thus tasting the gospel fruit for themselves. Only then will they know "whether it be of God" (John 7:17).
::''When members lack answers, they should learn what Church leaders and reputable scholars have said and written. There is probably no charge against the Church that has not been adequately refuted by someone. When members can’t find answers on their own, they can turn to home and visiting teachers, quorum leaders, bishops, and stake presidents...Those willing to take time to research anti-LDS claims can find answers.''
:::<small>—{{Ensign1|author=Gilbert W. Scharffs|article=I Have A Question|date=January 1995|start=60}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1995.htm/ensign%20january%201995.htm/i%20have%20a%20question.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0#LPTOC2}}</small>

:Once again, the video is shown to make false claims about what the Church does and teaches. FAIR hopes to play a role in finding answers for those who take the time to research anti-Mormon claims.
</font>

We encourage distribution of DVDs in neighborhoods surrounding LDS churches and/or Temples. Consider the following facts gleaned from previous similar
distributions:

FOR MORMONS - The DVD will be instrumental in leading them out of Mormonism and into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

<font color="blue">
:Note again the insistence that Mormons don't already have "a personal relationship with Jesus Christ." This is clearly false. (See discussion [[Search for the Truth DVD:Eternal Life|here]].)
</font>

FOR NON-MORMONS - The DVD exposes the false teachings of the Mormon cult. As a result, people who view the video are much less likely to be converted to Mormonism and these people often use the information found in the DVD to challenge their LDS neighbors and/or LDS missionaries.

<font color="blue">
:As noted above, the DVD producers want to 'protect' their own flocks from considering the message of modern prophets and witnesses of Jesus Christ. It is therefore vital that they convince their Christian audience that:
:*LDS teachings are false (and so, they must distort those teachings)''
:*Mormonism is a "cult" (they use fear and loaded language to vilify beliefs they do not share or understand)

:The DVD's Christian audience probably believes that a "Christian" ministry effort would never use lies and distortion, and so will trust what they hear. This is the real tragedy—well-meaning Christians will be misled about what their neighbors believe because of the dozens of deceptions in the ironically named ''Search for the Truth.''

:Their lies are less likely to be discovered by the unsuspecting Christians because the distribution team encourages their Christian distributors ''not'' to discuss the matter with LDS members beforehand.
</font>

THIS OPPORTUNITY IS TRULY A GOD SEND - God has led the producer of this video to freely give the DVD to Utah ministries (a gift exceeding a quarter of a million dollars). The producer has also offered this DVD at the production cost of .50 each to any Christian ministry outside of the state of Utah who will agree to participate in the NATION-WIDE distribution on March 25, 2007.

<font color="blue">
:Has God also led the producer and distributors to lie, deceive, and distort? To malign the sincere faith of others? To show enactments of the most sacred ordinances of their faith?
</font>

FOR YOUR INFORMATION:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Mormonism, is one of the largest, most powerful, and fastest growing cults in the world today.

<font color="blue">
:Again, the loaded word "cult" is used. This is essentially name calling, in which the speaker smears another religion with which he does not agree, without the trouble of having to discuss actual doctrines and beliefs. Note also the attempt to create a sense of urgency and sinister motive by focusing on the size, growth, and "power" of the "cult."

'''To read more:'''
* ''See'': {{Offenders1| start=1}})
</font>

Most people have been deceived into thinking that Mormonism is just another Christian religion. Most LDS converts are proselytized from Christian denominations.

<font color="blue">
:The producers' fears are again demonstrated: Christians are becoming Latter-day Saint Christians. Most LDS converts are Christians, and yet the letter wishes us to believe that all those Christians are seduced by the Mormons into thinking that the Church is Christian, when it really isn't.

:If so many Christians find the Church of Jesus Christ attractive, could it not be that they find that it ''adds'' to their understanding and joy in Christ?

:Thus, the DVD is willing to lie about the Church's beliefs to stem the tide of conversions.
</font>

Within the state of Utah, the number of Mormons has steadily declined over the past 10 years which teaches us three things:

<font color="blue">
:This claim is likewise false. (See [[LDS population in Utah|this article]].)

:This is a minor point, but it demonstrates how little the critics know about the Church, and how poor their research is.

:The ''number'' of members of the Church in Utah has risen, while the ''percentage'' of the state of Utah that is LDS has decreased.

:In 2006, the ''Salt Lake Tribune'' reported that that

::''"Utah's ongoing religious diversification has little to do with the LDS Church or its teachings, but rather is a reflection of the economy...When economic growth goes up, minority population goes up, and this is kind of a code word for non-Mormons...While continuing to grow in actual members, the LDS share of the state population showed a slow but constant decline every year from 1989 to 2004."'' {{link|url= http://www.sltrib.com/search/ci_2886596}}

</font>

1 - Within Utah, we are doing a fairly good job of combating Mormonism;

2 - The growth of Mormonism is outside of the state of Utah which makes this NATION-WIDE distribution essentially important.

3 - The Mormon Church is vulnerable. We firmly believe that with enough exposure, Mormonism will crumble and become a shadow of what it is today.

<font color="blue">

:The decreased proportion of Mormons in Utah is not due to "combating" Mormonism, unless the critics are encouraging non-members to move to Utah.

:It is true, though, that the Church has more room for growth outside of Utah, and is doing so. Small wonder that the critics are worried, and willing to deceive potential converts.

'''To read more'''
* [[LDS population in Utah]]
</font>

Please join us in our efforts to shut down the Mormon machine and lead a multitude of lost souls out of this cult and into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

<font color="blue">
:Once again, the Church is made to look impersonal and evil: it is a "machine," and a "cult" of "lost souls." It is much easier to justify deceiving and slandering a "machine" than a religion of committed Christians. In this way, it can be portrayed as "for their own good."

:The lie about a member's lack of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is again presented. (See discussion [[Search for the Truth DVD:Eternal Life|here]] and [[Search for the Truth DVD:Who Is Jesus?|here]]).
</font>

We believe that meditation upon JOHN chapter 15 (the entire chapter) will encourage you and answer your questions as to whether you should participate. WE CANNOT DO THIS WITHOUT YOUR HELP, PLEASE HELP US.

<font color="blue">
:John 15 does indeed provide some food for thought. One wishes the DVD producers and distributors had taken it to heart.

::This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. ({{s||John|15|12}})

:Did Jesus' love for others require Him to lie, slander, and distort their history and beliefs?

::But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.... ({{s||John|15|26}})

:Does the Holy Spirit truly bear witness to any honest Christian that the tactics, approach, and spirit of the ''Search for the Truth'' effort is from God?

:And, since Jesus recommends seeking the Holy Ghost, why does the video repeatedly mock the Latter-day Saints for appealing to it in their faith?

:*(See [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Summary|here]] where the Saints' witnesses from the Holy Ghost are smugly labeled as merely something "felt by simply watching a Hollywood movie.")
:*(See also [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Burning_in_the_Bosom|here]] for a detailed treatment of this issue.)
</font>
|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD

2007-03-24T04:41:27Z

JanAnderson: Typo for "inaccurate" corrected

__NOTOC__ __NOEDITSECTION__

{| style="width:100%;margin-top:+.7em;background-color:#ffffc0;border:1px solid #ccc"
|
{|style="width:100%;border:solid 0px;background:none"
|-
| style="text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;color:#000"|
<div style="border:none;margin: 0;padding:.1em;color:#000">[[Image:FrontSearchDVD.png]]</div>
|}

| style="font-size:85%;color:#000;padding:0em 0.4em 0em 1em;"|
<div style="font-size:200%;font-weight:bold;text-align:center;">Jesus Christ / Joseph Smith</div>

<div style="font-weight:bold;text-align:center;">Replies and resources addressing the ''Search for the Truth'' DVD<br />
A collaborative effort of FAIR.</div>

On 25 March 2007, a ninety-minute video entitled ''Search for the Truth'' was distributed to thousands of homes across the United States. The video has excellent production values but, unfortunately, its contents are not of a similar quality.

Though it purports to be an objective Christian evaluation of the teachings, history, and beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it contains much that is inaccurate and very little that is balanced. Rather than focus on what they believe, the video's producers have taken it upon themselves to describe and interpret LDS beliefs and teachings, often in ways that would be objectionable or unrecognizable to Latter-day Saints.

The video contains many of the same anti-Mormon claims that misguided critics have been repeating for years. The issues it raises have been repeatedly addressed by faithful Latter-day Saints, but the video does not address or take those responses into account.

This page provides information that will help you compare the video's claims with the actual history, teachings, and beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
|}




{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:70%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">A Bold Statement of Purpose</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
'''''"This video has been produced out of love for our Lord Jesus Christ and love for our Mormon and Christian friends. We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus."'''''

These words, silently displayed on-screen, serve as the preface to a video that claims to contrast the beliefs of Mormonism and the beliefs of Christianity. Although the producers of this video state that it was produced out of love, the numerous mischaracterizations, misrepresentations, errors, and outright falsehoods found on the DVD make it difficult for believing Latter-day Saints to see that expression of love as sincere. It unfortunately perpetuates the same shopworn criticisms of Mormonism that have been answered time and time again.

We agree with the unnamed producers of ''Search for the Truth,'' that only when the truth is known can reasonable decisions be reached. Unfortunately, those who only view this video will never know the whole truth because it is not accurately presented.

In your own "search for the truth," we at FAIR hope you will take the time to learn why many people who already know the information in this video remain faithful, practicing Mormons who try to model their lives after the example of the Lord Jesus Christ.
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Table of Contents</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
The following Table of Contents addresses the charges made in ''Search for the Truth.'' These are things you won't hear in a short video, and are definitely things the video's producers don't want you to know. As you click on the pages, you will find this same table of contents in the upper right corner of each page.

{{DVD25March2007-FullToC}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Other Information</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
* [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:letter|Letter to Distributors]]. A copy of the letter distributed with the advance copies of the DVD, providing instructions on how it was to be distributed on March 25, 2007.
* [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:letter(annotated)|Letter to Distributors (Annotated Version)]]. The same distribution letter, with an annotated commentary included.
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:30%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">About FAIR</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| {{About FAIR}}
|-
|}
|}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Credits

2007-03-24T04:30:05Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Credits}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

It may be helpful to those viewing the video to know a little more about some of the people who participated in the making of this video. The credits list people associated with the production of the video. There is one section of the credits, entitled "Special Thanks" that lists people who provided commentary on the video.

Individuals are highlighted, below, in alphabetical order.

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Marvin Cowan</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:CowanMarvin.png]]<br />''Marvin Cowan''
</div>
Marvin is the director or owner of Utah Christian Publications. This organization sells exclusivly anti-Mormon books and materials. Many of the books sold by Utah Christian Publications are written by the other people listed in the credits of this DVD.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Scott Gallatin</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:GallatinScott.png]]<br />''Scott Gallatin''
</div>
Scott Gallatin is the pastor of Calvary Chapel Finger Lakes in Farmington, New York.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Dennis and Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Dennis and Rauni Higley are anti-Mormons living in Sandy, Utah. Rauni is originally a Finnish citizen and served as a Mormon missionary in Finland. Dennis is an American who also served as a Mormon missionary in Finland. They eventually met and were married in Utah. Together, they left the Church in the 1980s and became Evangelical Christians. They later established HIS (He is Savior) Ministries.

<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:HigleyDR.png]]<br />''Dennis and Rauni Higley''
</div>
:The Higleys have been highly influenced by the Evangelical countercult arguments of the 1980s. During Rauni's stay in Finland in 1984, for example, she was instrumental in the inception of a highly sensationalistic article on the Mormons in a religious magazine. The material was heavily drawn from arguments in the book and movie ''The God Makers,'' with in-temple screenshots provided as illustrations. Some of the article’s statements convey the mood: "The truth is kept secret on purpose. It is not meant but for the few and chosen, for Mormonism is a pagan religion tied to secret doctrines, mysteries, and occultism. On its most secret levels, a Luciferian doctrine is unveiled as the background...Mormonism is based on a secret for the simple reason of the truth being too gruesome for a normal, ordinary person. Joseph Smith founded his religion based on completely mind-boggling tales."
::<small>—Kim Östman, "An International Perspective: Opposition to Mormonism in Finland, 1845-2006" (presentation at the 2006 FAIR Conference).</small>

In 2004 the Higleys wrote a thirty-page booklet, ''The Truth about Mormonism,'' published by The Berean Call, a ministry outlet closely associated with Dave Hunt.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Tim and Karen Howard</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Tim and Karen Howard are former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Dave Hunt has been actively involved in the self-styled countercult movement for over two decades. He is the coauthor, with Ed Decker, of both the original and the "updated and expanded" version of ''The God Makers.'' According to common marketing hype, he is "an internationally recognized cult expert." The 1984 edition says he's the author of 10 books in 20 languages, and the 1994 edition gives him "20-plus books [with] combined sales of more than 3 million copies."

<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:HuntDave.png]]<br />''Dave Hunt''
</div>
This, of course, still does not answer who Mr. Hunt really is—what credentials he has to speak to Christianity in general and Mormonism in particular. Mr. Hunt's lack of credentials have been problematic to many, if not to the video's producers.

In commenting on the "problem of authority and credibility" within the Christian countercult movement (of which ''Search for the Truth'' is a product), one non-LDS scholar comments specifically on Dave Hunt's place within the movement:

:Robert Wise begins his critique of ''The Seduction of Christianity'' in what seems an obvious, if often overlooked, place: who are Dave Hunt and Thomas Aloysius McMahon? Noting that "Hunt and McMahon define truth in a way peculiar to themselves," Wise continues: "We are never told who Hunt and McMahon are nor what credentials they have. Apparently, Hunt is a self-certified authority on cults" (1986: 40). DeMar and Leithart complain similarly: "That Dave Hunt, a man with a bachelor's degree in mathematics, is now the most prominent theologian of the dispensationalist movement...indicates the extent of the crisis" (1988: xvii).
::<small>—Douglas E. Cowan, ''Bearing False Witness: An Introduction to the Christian Countercult'' (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger Publishers, 2003), 199.</small>

Mr. Hunt's work relative to ''The God Makers'' was characterized by the non-Mormon US National Council of Christians and Jews as follows:

:"The Godmakers" ... does not, in our opinion, fairly portray the Mormon Church, Mormon belief, or Mormon history. It makes extensive use of 'half-truth', faulty generalizations, erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism…not reflective of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith...It appears to us to be a basically unfair and untruthful presentation of what Mormons really believe and practice.''
::<small>— National Council of Christians and Jews, "Programs in Pluralism," April 1994.</small>{{link|url=http://www.lightplanet.com/response/nccj.htm}}

Mr. Hunt believes that his version of Christianity is the only true version, and that all those who disagree are following religions that have their roots in Satanism. Included in his cadre of false religions (besides Mormonism) is Roman Catholicism. According to one non-Mormon observer,

:[Hunt] presents the darkest possible version of Roman Catholic history, laying responsibility squarely at Rome's door for, among other things, the rise of Nazism in Germany (elsewhere he claims Hinduism is responsible; cf. Hunt 1983); the implementation of the Final Solution (Hunt 1994:265-93); and the Ustaschi (Croat) massacres of Yugoslavian Serbs in the early 1940s (Hunt 1994: 297-307). For Hunt...the syllogism is simple: Because there were at least nominal Catholics involved in these atrocities, therefore the Roman Catholic Church as an institution supported and encouraged their actions--a convenient, monocausal explanation for these various attrocities.
::<small>—Douglas E. Cowan, ''Bearing False Witness: An Introduction to the Christian Countercult'' (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger Publishers, 2003), 187.</small>

Hunt's intolerant views don't extend solely to those in other religions. The same author goes on to describe his overtly misogynistic tendencies:

:For Hunt there is no doubt that the Roman Catholic Church plays a pivotal role in the end-times drama. She is the "Great Whore of Babylon," allegedly prophesied in the Revelation to St. John (17:3-6)—the "woman who rides the beast." For Hunt, as well, there is no doubt why it is a ''woman'' who rides the beast.
::Worldwide, today's women are asserting themselves as never before in history. Contrary to popular opinion, "women instigate more domestic violence [and] hit men more frequently and more severely [than men hit them]" and violence is far more frequent in lesbian relationships than between husband and wife. Women are taking over what were once men's jobs, and there is a growing acceptance of women at the highest levels of leadership in business, government, and religion. Only God could have given John, 1900 years ago, a vision that so fits out day—a ''woman'' in control. From current trends, it seems inevitable that a ''woman'' must ride the beast. (Hunt 1994: 456; glosses and emphasis in the original)
:There are two points of interest here, one methodological, the other substantive. First, while arguments like this surface from time to time, Hunt's [sic] takes his citation of domestic violence statistics from ''USA Today'' (June 29, 1994; Hunt 1994: 541 n.20) rather than a recognized research source. In addition, as is often the case, Hunt misrepresents the reference he does use. On that date, ''USA Today'' published three articles related to domestic violence—none of which contain the statistics Hunt cites, and two of which contain information in direct contradiction to it. Second, one is led to wonder about Hunt's thinly veiled misogynism, given that his chief candidate for the Whore of Babylon is a church that has yet to ordain its first woman priest.
::<small>—Douglas E. Cowan, ''Bearing False Witness: An Introduction to the Christian Countercult'' (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger Publishers, 2003), 187-188.</small>

'''To read more:'''
* Gilbert W. Scharffs, "The Truth About 'The Godmakers'" (a line-by-line refutation) {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/The_God_Makers/}}
* Craig L. Foster, "Old Themes and Stereotypes Never Die: The Unchanging Ways of Anti-Mormons," {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/conf/2003FosC.html}}
* Robert Brown and Rosemary Brown, ''They Lie In Wait to Deceive: Vol. 4'' {{fairlink|url=http://www.fair-lds.org/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=FAIR-TLIW4}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:KramerJoel.png]]<br />''Joel Kramer''
</div>
Joel Kramer is the Director of Living Hope Ministries from Brigham City, Utah. Their mission statement is: "Living Hope Ministries exists to share biblical truths with Mormons, and to educate and equip Christian individuals, ministries and churches to reach Mormons for the biblical Jesus Christ. " Living Hope Ministries have produced several anti Mormon DVDs.

Joel has been recently arrested for disorderly conduct as he refused to comply with a police officer as he was allegedly unlawfully video taping an LDS pageant. Of course just being arrested may not mean anything, but it certainly was important to the writers of this DVD when talking about Joseph Smith. Since it was so important to them, we thought it only fair to include it here.

'''To read more:'''
* Brant Gardner, "Behind the Mask, Behind the Curtain: Uncovering the Illusion'' (Review of ''The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon'' {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Bible_vs_the_Book_of_Mormon_Video.html}}
*{{FR-18-1-3}}
*{{FR-18-2-6}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Charles Larson</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:LarsonCharles.png]]<br />''Charles Larson''
</div>
Larson is the author of the well-known but deeply flawed anti-Mormon book <i>"By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus": A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri</i>. This book has been reviewed by LDS Egyptologists who hold degrees in the field. One reviewer summed up Larson's work:

:''Larson's historical method is as follows: Invent evidence, read minds, attribute motives, misquote sources, argue from circumstantial evidence—or better yet—argue from no evidence....''
:''If Larson stumbles as a historian, he falls flat on his face as an Egyptologist. He betrays no knowledge of any foreign language, yet offers to guide us through Egyptian, "a unique area of study that is extremely difficult to master."''
::<small>—John Gee, "A Tragedy of Errors," p. 99.</small>

The only qualifications listed for Larson at his publisher's web site are "former Mormon and Brigham Young University graduate." If the producers of the video can dismiss trained Egyptologists only because they are Mormon, is it reasonable to likewise dismiss critics like Larson because of his religious beliefs? Or should we add to those critical religious beliefs the fact that he is not trained in Egyptology at all? The producers willingly apply a double standard here.

'''To read more:'''
*{{FR-4-1-15}}
*{{FR-4-1-16}}
*[[Charles Larson|Reviews of Charles Larson]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Living Hope Ministries</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Living Hope Ministries is a Utah-based anti-Mormon ministry. They exist solely to lead Latter-day Saints out of Mormonism and to prevent other people from becoming Mormons. To accomplish their goals they have produced and distributed several anti-Mormon videos and plan on doing even more.

Their videos display the same superficiality, lack of respect, and dishonesty as ''Search for the Truth''.

* '''To read more:'''
* Brant Gardner, "Behind the Mask, Behind the Curtain: Uncovering the Illusion'' (Review of ''The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon'' {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Bible_vs_the_Book_of_Mormon_Video.html}}
*{{FR-18-1-3}}
*{{FR-18-2-6}}

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:MackertBrian.png]]<br />''Brian Mackert''
</div>
Brian J. Mackert was born a member of the FLDS church, which believes that the LDS Church is in apostasy. According to his online biography, his great grandfather was excommunicated from the LDS Church in 1934 after publishing a book in support of polygamy, and his grandparents were excommunicated because they "would not comply with the current LDS Churches [sic] position on polygamy."

After going through a spiritual crisis in his late teens, Mackert abandoned the FLDS church and joined the LDS Church right after he entered the Marine Corps. Within a year, in his words, "I became aware that I could never say with full confidence that the LDS Church was the true church. There were too many doubts that I had..." Shortly thereafter he stopped attending the LDS Church and became converted to born-again Evangelical Christianity and started attending local Baptist churches.

According to Brian's Web site:

:''Brian is now a licensed minister working in Prison Ministry preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and sharing the forgiveness that only comes through the shed blood of Jesus Christ with prisoners and especially sex offenders.''
:''Brian is available upon request to give presentations concerning the beliefs, practices of Mormons and to give witnessing tips for those wanting to reach the Mormon People with the true gospel of Jesus Christ.''

One must wonder how much expertise one could gain in Mormonism after being raised in a different church and only belonging to the LDS Church for approximately a year.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jon McCartney</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Jon McCartney is pastor of the First Baptist Church in Tooele, Utah.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:McElveen.png]]<br />''Floyd McElveen''
</div>
Floyd McElveen wrote a book that was distributed in Utah about 20 years ago. On the cover it says ''God's Word, Final, Infallible and Forever'', but inside it is actually 3 different books written by Floyd: the one on the cover, ''The Mormon Illusion'', and ''From Mormon Illusion to God's Love''. The book was published by Gospel Truths Ministries in Grand Rapids, MI. In the author bio it says he "is the national evangelist for the Conservative Baptist Home Mission Society."

McElveen also contributed a chapter to Charles Larson's flawed and inadequate ''By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus''.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Roger Oakland</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:OaklandRoger.png]]<br />''Roger Oakland''
</div>
Roger Oakland is with Understanding the Times International, a countercult ministry. He has a number of articles at the organization's Web site, including many that attack Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, science, and New Age religious movements.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Phil Roberts</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:RobertsPhil.png]]<br />''Phil Roberts''
</div>
Phil Roberts is president of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Kansas City. He has written or contributed to at least two anti-Mormon books—''Mormonism Unmasked'' and ''The Counterfeit Gospel of Mormonism.'' (The latter he wrote with Francis J. Beckwith, Norman Geisler, Ron Rhodes, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner.)

Roberts served as director of the Interfaith Witness Department of the North American Mission Board for the Southern Baptist Convention where, in 1998, he was responsible for producing the video ''The Mormon Puzzle.'' Roberts has also authored several other articles that are clearly anti-Mormon in tone and focus.

'''To read more:'''
* {{FR-10-1-12}}
* {{FR-18-2-189}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Sandra Tanner</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Sandra Tanner and her late husband, Jerald Tanner, are certainly among the most prolific anti-Mormon authors. However, non-Mormon scholars of LDS issues have noted that the Tanners display a consistent bias in their work:

<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:TannerSandra.png]]<br />''Sandra Tanner''
</div>
:''[The Tanners] always assume the worst possible motives in assessing the actions of Mormon leaders, even when those leaders faced extremely complex problems with no simple solutions.... Every bit of evidence, even if it could be most plausibly presented in a positive way, is represented as yet another nail in the coffin being prepared for the Mormon Church. There is no spectrum of colors, only blacks and whites, good guys and villains in the Tanners' published writings.... The Tanners have repeatedly assumed a holier-than-thou stance, refusing to be fair in applying the same debate standards of absolute rectitude which they demand of Mormonism to their own actions, writings, and beliefs.''
::<small>—{{Dialogue1|author=Lawrence Foster|article=Career Apostates: Reflections on the Works of Jerald and Sandra Tanner|vol=17|num=2|date=Summer 1984|start=45|end=46}}</small>

Sandra Tanner's research is agenda-driven and unreliable. Sincere seekers of the truth about Latter-day Saint beliefs and history deserve more reliable sources.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Jerald_and_Sandra_Tanner|Reviews of Jerald and Sandra Tanner]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Chip Thompson</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:ThompsonChip.png]]<br />''Chip Thompson''
</div>
Chip Thompson director of Tri-Grace Ministries in Ephraim, UT. Tri-Grace Ministries runs a college house facility, which is "intended to be safe haven for all Christian students who attend Snow College." His advisory board includes:
* Bill Mckeever, (Mormon Research Ministries, Sandy, UT)
* Luke Wilson, (Institute for Religious Research, Grand Rapids, MI)
* Keith Walker, (Evidence Ministries, San Antonio, TX)
* Bob Betts, (Board Member, Concerned Christians, Mesa, AZ)
* Timothy Oliver, (Utah Director, Watchman Fellowship, Santaquin, UT)

It is curious that a facility for college students should have a board composed entirely of professional anti-Mormons.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">John Whitcomb</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:WhitcombJohn.png]]<br />''John Whitcomb''
</div>
Dr. John Whitcomb, Th.D., is president of Whitcomb Ministries and former professor of Theology and Old Testament studies at Graceland Theological Seminary. Whitcomb is also co-author of ''The Genesis Flood'' which helped play a founding role in the modern "Creation Science" movement (although Whitcomb is a theologian rather than a scientist). Whitcomb believes in a young earth, a global flood, and an inerrant Bible that should be interpreted literally. He also claims that there were 1,000 different kinds of dinosaurs on the ark and he is critical of not only evolution, but also of progressive creationism and intelligent design.

Despite the fact that DNA disproves these beliefs with far more rigor than the Book of Mormon, Dr. Whitcomb has agreed to appear in this DVD which makes appeals to DNA science.

|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Credits

2007-03-24T04:20:58Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Credits}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

It may be helpful to those viewing the video to know a little more about some of the people who participated in the making of this video. The credits list people associated with the production of the video. There is one section of the credits, entitled "Special Thanks" that lists people who provided commentary on the video.

Individuals are highlighted, below, in alphabetical order.

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Marvin Cowan</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:CowanMarvin.png]]<br />''Marvin Cowan''
</div>
Marvin is the director or owner of Utah Christian Publications. This organization sells exclusivly anti-Mormon books and materials. Many of the books sold by Utah Christian Publications are written by the other people listed in the credits of this DVD.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Scott Gallatin</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:GallatinScott.png]]<br />''Scott Gallatin''
</div>
Scott Gallatin is the pastor of Calvary Chapel Finger Lakes in Farmington, New York.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Dennis and Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Dennis and Rauni Higley are anti-Mormons living in Sandy, Utah. Rauni is originally a Finnish citizen and served as a Mormon missionary in Finland. Dennis is an American who also served as a Mormon missionary in Finland. They eventually met and were married in Utah. Together, they left the Church in the 1980s and became Evangelical Christians. They later established HIS (He is Savior) Ministries.

<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:HigleyDR.png]]<br />''Dennis and Rauni Higley''
</div>
:The Higleys have been highly influenced by the Evangelical countercult arguments of the 1980s. During Rauni's stay in Finland in 1984, for example, she was instrumental in the inception of a highly sensationalistic article on the Mormons in a religious magazine. The material was heavily drawn from arguments in the book and movie ''The God Makers,'' with in-temple screenshots provided as illustrations. Some of the article’s statements convey the mood: "The truth is kept secret on purpose. It is not meant but for the few and chosen, for Mormonism is a pagan religion tied to secret doctrines, mysteries, and occultism. On its most secret levels, a Luciferian doctrine is unveiled as the background...Mormonism is based on a secret for the simple reason of the truth being too gruesome for a normal, ordinary person. Joseph Smith founded his religion based on completely mindboggling tales."
::<small>—Kim Östman, "An International Perspective: Opposition to Mormonism in Finland, 1845-2006" (presentation at the 2006 FAIR Conference).</small>

In 2004 the Higleys wrote a thirty-page booklet, ''The Truth about Mormonism,'' published by The Berean Call, a ministry outlet closely associated with Dave Hunt.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Tim and Karen Howard</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Tim and Karen Howard are former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Dave Hunt has been actively involved in the self-styled countercult movement for over two decades. He is the coauthor, with Ed Decker, of both the original and the "updated and expanded" version of ''The God Makers.'' According to common marketing hype, he is "an internationally recognized cult expert." The 1984 edition says he's the author of 10 books in 20 languages, and the 1994 edition gives him "20-plus books [with] combined sales of more than 3 million copies."

<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:HuntDave.png]]<br />''Dave Hunt''
</div>
This, of course, still does not answer who Mr. Hunt really is—what credentials he has to speak to Christianity in general and Mormonism in particular. Mr. Hunt's lack of credentials have been problematic to many, if not to the video's producers.

In commenting on the "problem of authority and credibility" within the Christian countercult movement (of which ''Search for the Truth'' is a product), one non-LDS scholar comments specifically on Dave Hunt's place within the movement:

:Robert Wise begins his critique of ''The Seduction of Christianity'' in what seems an obvious, if often overlooked, place: who are Dave Hunt and Thomas Aloysius McMahon? Noting that "Hunt and McMahon define truth in a way peculiar to themselves," Wise continues: "We are never told who Hunt and McMahon are nor what credentials they have. Apparentlyl Hunt is a self-certified authority on cults" (1986: 40). DeMar and Leithart complain similarly: "That Dave Hunt, a man with a bachelor's degree in mathematics, is now the most prominent theologian of the dispensationalist movement...indicates the extent of the crisis" (1988: xvii).
::<small>—Douglas E. Cowan, ''Bearing False Witness: An Introduction to the Christian Countercult'' (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger Publishers, 2003), 199.</small>

Mr. Hunt's work relative to ''The God Makers'' was characterized by the non-Mormon US National Council of Christians and Jews as follows:

:"The Godmakers" ... does not, in our opinion, fairly portray the Mormon Church, Mormon belief, or Mormon history. It makes extensive use of 'half-truth', faulty generalizations, erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism…not reflective of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith...It appears to us to be a basically unfair and untruthful presentation of what Mormons really believe and practice.''
::<small>— National Council of Christians and Jews, "Programs in Pluralism," April 1994.</small>{{link|url=http://www.lightplanet.com/response/nccj.htm}}

Mr. Hunt believes that his version of Christianity is the only true version, and that all those who disagree are following religions that have their roots in Satanism. Included in his cadre of false religions (besides Mormonism) is Roman Catholicism. According to one non-Mormon observer,

:[Hunt] presents the darkest possible version of Roman Catholic history, laying responsibility squarely at Rome's door for, among other things, the rise of Nazism in Germany (elsewhere he claims Hinduism is responsible; cf. Hunt 1983); the implementation of the Final Solution (Hunt 1994:265-93); and the Ustaschi (Croat) massacres of Yugoslavian Serbs in teh early 1940s (Hunt 1994: 297-307). For Hunt...the syllogism is simple: Because there were at least nominal Catholics involved in these attrocities, therefore the Roman Catholic Church as an institution supported and encouraged their actions--a convenient, monocausal explanation for these various attrocities.
::<small>—Douglas E. Cowan, ''Bearing False Witness: An Introduction to the Christian Countercult'' (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger Publishers, 2003), 187.</small>

Hunt's intolerant views don't extend solely to those in other religions. The same author goes on to describe his overtly misogynistic tendencies:

:For Hunt there is no doubt that the Roman Catholic Church plays a pivotal role in the end-times drama. She is the "Great Whore of Babylon," allegedly prophesied in the Revelation to St. John (17:3-6)—the "woman who rides the beast." For Hunt, as well, there is no doubt why it is a ''woman'' who rides the beast.
::Worldwide, today's women are asserting themselves as never before in history. Contrary to popular opinion, "women instigate more domestic violence [and] hit men more frequently and more severely [than men hit them]" and violence is far more frequent in lesbian relationships than between husband and wife. Women are taking over what were once men's jobs, and there is a growing acceptance of women at the highest levels of leadership in business, government, and religion. Only God could have given John, 1900 years ago, a vision that so fits out day—a ''woman'' in control. From current trends, it seems inevitable that a ''woman'' must ride the beast. (Hunt 1994: 456; glosses and emphasis in the original)
:There are two points of interest here, one methodological, the other substantive. First, while arguments like this surface from time to time, Hunt's [sic] takes his citation of domestic violence statistics from ''USA Today'' (June 29, 1994; Hunt 1994: 541 n.20) rather than a recognized research source. In addition, as is often the case, Hunt misrepresents the reference he does use. On that date, ''USA Today'' published three articles related to domestic violence—none of which contain the statistics Hunt cites, and two of which contain information in direct contradiction to it. Second, one is led to wonder about Hunt's thinly veiled misogynism, given that his chief candidate for the Whore of Bablylon is a church that has yet to ordain its first woman priest.
::<small>—Douglas E. Cowan, ''Bearing False Witness: An Introduction to the Christian Countercult'' (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger Publishers, 2003), 187-188.</small>

'''To read more:'''
* Gilbert W. Scharffs, "The Truth About 'The Godmakers'" (a line-by-line refutation) {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/The_God_Makers/}}
* Craig L. Foster, "Old Themes and Stereotypes Never Die: The Unchanging Ways of Anti-Mormons," {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/conf/2003FosC.html}}
* Robert Brown and Rosemary Brown, ''They Lie In Wait to Deceive: Vol. 4'' {{fairlink|url=http://www.fair-lds.org/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=FAIR-TLIW4}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:KramerJoel.png]]<br />''Joel Kramer''
</div>
Joel Kramer is the Director of Living Hope Ministries from Brigham City, Utah. Their mission statement is: "Living Hope Ministries exists to share biblical truths with Mormons, and to educate and equip Christian individuals, ministries and churches to reach Mormons for the biblical Jesus Christ. " Living Hope Ministries have produced several anti Mormon DVDs.

Joel has been recently arrested for disorderly conduct as he refused to comply with a police officer as he was allegedly unlawfully video taping an LDS pagent. Of course just being arrested may not mean anything, but it certainly was important to the writers of this DVD when talking about Joseph Smith. Since it was so important to them, we thought it only fair to include it here.

'''To read more:'''
* Brant Gradner, "Behind the Mask, Behind the Curtain: Uncovering the Illusion'' (Review of ''The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon'' {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Bible_vs_the_Book_of_Mormon_Video.html}}
*{{FR-18-1-3}}
*{{FR-18-2-6}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Charles Larson</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:LarsonCharles.png]]<br />''Charles Larson''
</div>
Larson is the author of the well-known but deeply flawed anti-Mormon book <i>"By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus": A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri</i>. This book has been reviewed by LDS Egyptologists who hold degrees in the field. One reviewer summed up Larson's work:

:''Larson's historical method is as follows: Invent evidence, read minds, attribute motives, misquote sources, argue from circumstantial evidence—or better yet—argue from no evidence....''
:''If Larson stumbles as a historian, he falls flat on his face as an Egyptologist. He betrays no knowledge of any foreign language, yet offers to guide us through Egyptian, "a unique area of study that is extremely difficult to master."''
::<small>—John Gee, "A Tragedy of Errors," p. 99.</small>

The only qualifications listed for Larson at his publisher's web site are "former Mormon and Brigham Young University graduate." If the producers of the video can dismiss trained Egyptologists only because they are Mormon, is it reasonable to likewise dismiss critics like Larson because of his religious beliefs? Or should we add to those critical religious beliefs the fact that he is not trained in Egyptology at all? The producers willingly apply a double standard here.

'''To read more:'''
*{{FR-4-1-15}}
*{{FR-4-1-16}}
*[[Charles Larson|Reviews of Charles Larson]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Living Hope Ministries</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Living Hope Ministries is a Utah-based anti-Mormon ministry. They exist solely to lead Latter-day Saints out of Mormonism and to prevent other people from becoming Mormons. To accomplish their goals they have produced and distributed several anti-Mormon videos and plan on doing even more.

Their videos display the same superficiality, lack of respect, and dishonesty as ''Search for the Truth''.

* '''To read more:'''
* Brant Gradner, "Behind the Mask, Behind the Curtain: Uncovering the Illusion'' (Review of ''The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon'' {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Bible_vs_the_Book_of_Mormon_Video.html}}
*{{FR-18-1-3}}
*{{FR-18-2-6}}

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:MackertBrian.png]]<br />''Brian Mackert''
</div>
Brian J. Mackert was born a member of the FLDS church, which believes that the LDS Church is in apostasy. According to his online biography, his great grandfather was excommunicated from the LDS Church in 1934 after publishing a book in support of polygamy, and his grandparents were excommunicated because they "would not comply with the current LDS Churches [sic] position on polygamy."

After going through a spiritual crisis in his late teens, Mackert abandoned the FLDS church and joined the LDS Church right after he entered the Marine Corps. Within a year, in his words, "I became aware that I could never say with full confidence that the LDS Church was the true church. There were too many doubts that I had..." Shortly thereafter he stopped attending the LDS Church and became converted to born-again Evangelical Christianity and started attending local Baptist churches.

According to Brian's Web site:

:''Brian is now a licensed minister working in Prison Ministry preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and sharing the forgiveness that only comes through the shed blood of Jesus Christ with prisoners and especially sex offenders.''
:''Brian is available upon request to give presenations concerning the beliefs, practices of Mormons and to give witnessing tips for those wanting to reach the Mormon People with the true gospel of Jesus Christ.''

One must wonder how much expertise one could gain in Mormonism after being raised in a different church and only belonging to the LDS Church for approximately a year.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jon McCartney</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Jon McCartney is pastor of the First Baptist Church in Tooele, Utah.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:McElveen.png]]<br />''Floyd McElveen''
</div>
Floyd McElveen wrote a book that was distributed in Utah about 20 years ago. On the cover it says ''God's Word, Final, Infallible and Forever'', but inside it is actually 3 different books written by Floyd: the one on the cover, ''The Mormon Illusion'', and ''From Mormon Illusion to God's Love''. The book was published by Gospel Truths Ministries in Grand Rapids, MI. In the author bio it says he "is the national evangelist for the Conservative Baptist Home Mission Society."

McElveen also contributed a chapter to Charles Larson's flawed and inadequate ''By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus''.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Roger Oakland</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:OaklandRoger.png]]<br />''Roger Oakland''
</div>
Roger Oakland is with Understanding the Times International, a countercult ministry. He has a number of articles at the organization's Web site, including many that attack Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, science, and New Age religious movements.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Phil Roberts</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:RobertsPhil.png]]<br />''Phil Roberts''
</div>
Phil Roberts is president of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Kansas City. He has written or contributed to at least two anti-Mormon books—''Mormonism Unmasked'' and ''The Counterfeit Gospel of Mormonism.'' (The latter he wrote with Francis J. Beckwith, Norman Geisler, Ron Rhodes, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner.)

Roberts served as director of the Interfaith Witness Department of the North American Mission Board for the Southern Baptist Convention where, in 1998, he was responsible for producing the video ''The Mormon Puzzle.'' Roberts has also authored several other articles that are clearly anti-Mormon in tone and focus.

'''To read more:'''
* {{FR-10-1-12}}
* {{FR-18-2-189}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Sandra Tanner</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Sandra Tanner and her late husband, Jerald Tanner, are certainly among the most prolific anti-Mormon authors. However, non-Mormon scholars of LDS issues have noted that the Tanners display a consistent bias in their work:

<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:TannerSandra.png]]<br />''Sandra Tanner''
</div>
:''[The Tanners] always assume the worst possible motives in assessing the actions of Mormon leaders, even when those leaders faced extremely complex problems with no simple solutions.... Every bit of evidence, even if it could be most plausibly presented in a positive way, is represented as yet another nail in the coffin being prepared for the Mormon Church. There is no spectrum of colors, only blacks and whites, good guys and villains in the Tanners' published writings.... The Tanners have repeatedly assumed a holier-than-thou stance, refusing to be fair in applying the same debate standards of absolute rectitude which they demand of Mormonism to their own actions, writings, and beliefs.''
::<small>—{{Dialogue1|author=Lawrence Foster|article=Career Apostates:Reflections on the Works of Jerald and Sandra Tanner|vol=17|num=2|date=Summer 1984|start=45|end=46}}</small>

Sandra Tanner's research is agenda-driven and unreliable. Sincere seekers of the truth about Latter-day Saint beliefs and history deserve more reliable sources.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Jerald_and_Sandra_Tanner|Reviews of Jerald and Sandra Tanner]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Chip Thompson</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:ThompsonChip.png]]<br />''Chip Thompson''
</div>
Chip Thompson director of Tri-Grace Ministries in Ephraim, UT. Tri-Grace Ministries runs a college house facility, which is "intended to be safe haven for all Christian students who attend Snow College." His advisory board includes:
* Bill Mckeever, (Mormon Research Ministries, Sandy, UT)
* Luke Wilson, (Institute for Religious Research, Grand Rapids, MI)
* Keith Walker, (Evidence Ministries, San Antonio, TX)
* Bob Betts, (Board Member, Concerned Christians, Mesa, AZ)
* Timothy Oliver, (Utah Director, Watchman Fellowship, Santaquin, UT)

It is curious that a facility for college students should have a board composed entirely of professional anti-Mormons.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">John Whitcomb</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:WhitcombJohn.png]]<br />''John Whitcomb''
</div>
Dr. John Whitcomb, Th.D., is president of Whitcomb Ministries and former professor of Theology and Old Testament studies at Graceland Theological Seminary. Whitcomb is also co-author of ''The Genesis Flood'' which helped play a founding role in the modern "Creation Science" movement (although Whitcomb is a theologian rather than a scientist). Whitcomb believes in a young earth, a global flood, and an inerrant Bible that should be intepreted literally. He also claims that there were 1,000 different kinds of dinosaurs on the ark and he is critical of not only evolution, but also of progressive creationism and intelligent design.

Despite the fact that DNA disproves these beliefs with far more rigor than the Book of Mormon, Dr. Whitcomb has agreed to appear in this DVD which makes appeals to DNA science.

|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Credits

2007-03-24T04:08:27Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Credits}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

It may be helpful to those viewing the video to know a little more about some of the people who participated in the making of this video. The credits list people associated with the production of the video. There is one section of the credits, entitled "Special Thanks" that lists people who provided commentary on the video.

Individuals are highlighted, below, in alphabetical order.

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Marvin Cowan</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:CowanMarvin.png]]<br />''Marvin Cowan''
</div>
Marvin is the director or owner of Utah Christian Publications. This organization sells exclusivly anti-Mormon books and materials. Many of the books sold by Utah Christian Publications are written by the other people listed in the credits of this DVD.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Scott Gallatin</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:GallatinScott.png]]<br />''Scott Gallatin''
</div>
Scott Gallatin is the pastor of Calvary Chapel Finger Lakes in Farmington, New York.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Dennis and Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Dennis and Rauni Higley are anti-Mormons living in Sandy, Utah. Rauni is originally a Finnish citizen and served as a Mormon missionary in Finland. Dennis is an American who also served as a Mormon missionary in Finland. They eventually met and were married in Utah. While working as a translator for the LDS Church, Rauni began to doubt its teachings. Her husband eventually followed suit. Together, they left the Church in the 1980s and became Evangelical Christians. They later established HIS (He is Savior) Ministries.

<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:HigleyDR.png]]<br />''Dennis and Rauni Higley''
</div>
:The Higleys have been highly influenced by the Evangelical countercult arguments of the 1980s. During Rauni's stay in Finland in 1984, for example, she was instrumental in the inception of a highly sensationalistic article on the Mormons in a religious magazine. The material was heavily drawn from arguments in the book and movie ''The God Makers,'' with in-temple screenshots provided as illustrations. Some of the article’s statements convey the mood: "The truth is kept secret on purpose. It is not meant but for the few and chosen, for Mormonism is a pagan religion tied to secret doctrines, mysteries, and occultism. On its most secret levels, a Luciferian doctrine is unveiled as the background...Mormonism is based on a secret for the simple reason of the truth being too gruesome for a normal, ordinary person. Joseph Smith founded his religion based on completely mindboggling tales."
::<small>—Kim Östman, "An International Perspective: Opposition to Mormonism in Finland, 1845-2006" (presentation at the 2006 FAIR Conference).</small>

In 2004 the Higleys wrote a thirty-page booklet, ''The Truth about Mormonism,'' published by The Berean Call, a ministry outlet closely associated with Dave Hunt.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Tim and Karen Howard</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Tim and Karen Howard are former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Dave Hunt has been actively involved in the self-styled countercult movement for over two decades. He is the coauthor, with Ed Decker, of both the original and the "updated and expanded" version of ''The God Makers.'' According to common marketing hype, he is "an internationally recognized cult expert." The 1984 edition says he's the author of 10 books in 20 languages, and the 1994 edition gives him "20-plus books [with] combined sales of more than 3 million copies."

<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:HuntDave.png]]<br />''Dave Hunt''
</div>
This, of course, still does not answer who Mr. Hunt really is—what credentials he has to speak to Christianity in general and Mormonism in particular. Mr. Hunt's lack of credentials have been problematic to many, if not to the video's producers.

In commenting on the "problem of authority and credibility" within the Christian countercult movement (of which ''Search for the Truth'' is a product), one non-LDS scholar comments specifically on Dave Hunt's place within the movement:

:Robert Wise begins his critique of ''The Seduction of Christianity'' in what seems an obvious, if often overlooked, place: who are Dave Hunt and Thomas Aloysius McMahon? Noting that "Hunt and McMahon define truth in a way peculiar to themselves," Wise continues: "We are never told who Hunt and McMahon are nor what credentials they have. Apparentlyl Hunt is a self-certified authority on cults" (1986: 40). DeMar and Leithart complain similarly: "That Dave Hunt, a man with a bachelor's degree in mathematics, is now the most prominent theologian of the dispensationalist movement...indicates the extent of the crisis" (1988: xvii).
::<small>—Douglas E. Cowan, ''Bearing False Witness: An Introduction to the Christian Countercult'' (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger Publishers, 2003), 199.</small>

Mr. Hunt's work relative to ''The God Makers'' was characterized by the non-Mormon US National Council of Christians and Jews as follows:

:"The Godmakers" ... does not, in our opinion, fairly portray the Mormon Church, Mormon belief, or Mormon history. It makes extensive use of 'half-truth', faulty generalizations, erroneous interpretations, and sensationalism…not reflective of the genuine spirit of the Mormon faith...It appears to us to be a basically unfair and untruthful presentation of what Mormons really believe and practice.''
::<small>— National Council of Christians and Jews, "Programs in Pluralism," April 1994.</small>{{link|url=http://www.lightplanet.com/response/nccj.htm}}

Mr. Hunt believes that his version of Christianity is the only true version, and that all those who disagree are following religions that have their roots in Satanism. Included in his cadre of false religions (besides Mormonism) is Roman Catholicism. According to one non-Mormon observer,

:[Hunt] presents the darkest possible version of Roman Catholic history, laying responsibility squarely at Rome's door for, among other things, the rise of Nazism in Germany (elsewhere he claims Hinduism is responsible; cf. Hunt 1983); the implementation of the Final Solution (Hunt 1994:265-93); and the Ustaschi (Croat) massacres of Yugoslavian Serbs in teh early 1940s (Hunt 1994: 297-307). For Hunt...the syllogism is simple: Because there were at least nominal Catholics involved in these attrocities, therefore the Roman Catholic Church as an institution supported and encouraged their actions--a convenient, monocausal explanation for these various attrocities.
::<small>—Douglas E. Cowan, ''Bearing False Witness: An Introduction to the Christian Countercult'' (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger Publishers, 2003), 187.</small>

Hunt's intolerant views don't extend solely to those in other religions. The same author goes on to describe his overtly misogynistic tendendencies:

:For Hunt there is no doubt that the Roman Catholic Church plays a pivotal role in the end-times drama. She is the "Great Whore of Babylon," allegedly prophesied in the Revelation to St. John (17:3-6)—the "woman who rides the beast." For Hunt, as well, there is no doubt why it is a ''woman'' who rides the beast.
::Worldwide, today's women are asserting themselves as never before in history. Contrary to popular opinion, "women instigate more domestic violence [and] hit men more frequently and more severely [than men hit them]" and violence is far more frequent in lesbian relationships than between husband and wife. Women are taking over what were once men's jobs, and there is a growing acceptance of women at the highest levels of leadershipin business, government, and religion. Only God could have given John, 1900 years ago, a vision that so fits out day—a ''woman'' in control. From current trends, it seems inevitable that a ''woman'' must ride the beast. (Hunt 1994: 456; glosses and emphasis in the original)
:There are two points of interest here, one methodological, the other substantive. First, while arguments like this surface from time to time, Hunt's [sic] takes his citation of domestic violence statistics from ''USA Today'' (June 29, 1994; Hunt 1994: 541 n.20) rather than a recognized research source. In addition, as is often the case, Hunt misrepresents the reference he does use. On that date, ''USA Today'' published three articles related to domestic violence—none of which contain the statistics Hunt cites, and two of which contain information in direct contradition to it. Second, one is led to wonder about Hunt's thinly veiled misogynism, given that his chief candidate for the Whore of Bablylon is a church that has yet to ordain its first woman priest.
::<small>—Douglas E. Cowan, ''Bearing False Witness: An Introduction to the Christian Countercult'' (Westport, Connecticut: Praeger Publishers, 2003), 187-188.</small>

'''To read more:'''
* Gilbert W. Scharffs, "The Truth About 'The Godmakers'" (a line-by-line refutation) {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/The_God_Makers/}}
* Craig L. Foster, "Old Themes and Stereotypes Never Die: The Unchanging Ways of Anti-Mormons," {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/conf/2003FosC.html}}
* Robert Brown and Rosemary Brown, ''They Lie In Wait to Deceive: Vol. 4'' {{fairlink|url=http://www.fair-lds.org/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=FAIR-TLIW4}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:KramerJoel.png]]<br />''Joel Kramer''
</div>
Joel Kramer is the Director of Living Hope Ministries from Brigham City, Utah. Their mission statement is: "Living Hope Ministries exists to share biblical truths with Mormons, and to educate and equip Christian individuals, ministries and churches to reach Mormons for the biblical Jesus Christ. " Living Hope Ministries have produced several anti Mormon DVDs.

Joel has been recently arrested for disorderly conduct as he refused to comply with a police officer as he was allegedly unlawfully video taping an LDS pagent. Of course just being arrested may not mean anything, but it certainly was important to the writers of this DVD when talking about Joseph Smith. Since it was so important to them, we thought it only fair to include it here.

'''To read more:'''
* Brant Gradner, "Behind the Mask, Behind the Curtain: Uncovering the Illusion'' (Review of ''The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon'' {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Bible_vs_the_Book_of_Mormon_Video.html}}
*{{FR-18-1-3}}
*{{FR-18-2-6}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Charles Larson</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:LarsonCharles.png]]<br />''Charles Larson''
</div>
Larson is the author of the well-known but deeply flawed anti-Mormon book <i>"By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus": A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri</i>. This book has been reviewed by LDS Egyptologists who hold degrees in the field. One reviewer summed up Larson's work:

:''Larson's historical method is as follows: Invent evidence, read minds, attribute motives, misquote sources, argue from circumstantial evidence—or better yet—argue from no evidence....''
:''If Larson stumbles as a historian, he falls flat on his face as an Egyptologist. He betrays no knowledge of any foreign language, yet offers to guide us through Egyptian, "a unique area of study that is extremely difficult to master."''
::<small>—John Gee, "A Tragedy of Errors," p. 99.</small>

The only qualifications listed for Larson at his publisher's web site are "former Mormon and Brigham Young University graduate." If the producers of the video can dismiss trained Egyptologists only because they are Mormon, is it reasonable to likewise dismiss critics like Larson because of his religious beliefs? Or should we add to those critical religious beliefs the fact that he is not trained in Egyptology at all? The producers willingly apply a double standard here.

'''To read more:'''
*{{FR-4-1-15}}
*{{FR-4-1-16}}
*[[Charles Larson|Reviews of Charles Larson]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Living Hope Ministries</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Living Hope Ministries is a Utah-based anti-Mormon ministry. They exist solely to lead Latter-day Saints out of Mormonism and to prevent other people from becoming Mormons. To accomplish their goals they have produced and distributed several anti-Mormon videos and plan on doing even more.

Their videos display the same superficiality, lack of respect, and dishonesty as ''Search for the Truth''.

* '''To read more:'''
* Brant Gradner, "Behind the Mask, Behind the Curtain: Uncovering the Illusion'' (Review of ''The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon'' {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Bible_vs_the_Book_of_Mormon_Video.html}}
*{{FR-18-1-3}}
*{{FR-18-2-6}}

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:MackertBrian.png]]<br />''Brian Mackert''
</div>
Brian J. Mackert was born a member of the FLDS church, which believes that the LDS Church is in apostasy. According to his online biography, his great grandfather was excommunicated from the LDS Church in 1934 after publishing a book in support of polygamy, and his grandparents were excommunicated because they "would not comply with the current LDS Churches [sic] position on polygamy."

After going through a spiritual crisis in his late teens, Mackert abandoned the FLDS church and joined the LDS Church right after he entered the Marine Corps. Within a year, in his words, "I became aware that I could never say with full confidence that the LDS Church was the true church. There were too many doubts that I had..." Shortly thereafter he stopped attending the LDS Church and became converted to born-again Evangelical Christianity and started attending local Baptist churches.

According to Brian's Web site:

:''Brian is now a licensed minister working in Prison Ministry preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and sharing the forgiveness that only comes through the shed blood of Jesus Christ with prisoners and especially sex offenders.''
:''Brian is available upon request to give presenations concerning the beliefs, practices of Mormons and to give witnessing tips for those wanting to reach the Mormon People with the true gospel of Jesus Christ.''

One must wonder how much expertise one could gain in Mormonism after being raised in a different church and only belonging to the LDS Church for approximately a year.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jon McCartney</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Jon McCartney is pastor of the First Baptist Church in Tooele, Utah.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:McElveen.png]]<br />''Floyd McElveen''
</div>
Floyd McElveen wrote a book that was distributed in Utah about 20 years ago. On the cover it says ''God's Word, Final, Infallible and Forever'', but inside it is actually 3 different books written by Floyd: the one on the cover, ''The Mormon Illusion'', and ''From Mormon Illusion to God's Love''. The book was published by Gospel Truths Ministries in Grand Rapids, MI. In the author bio it says he "is the national evangelist for the Conservative Baptist Home Mission Society."

McElveen also contributed a chapter to Charles Larson's flawed and inadequate ''By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus''.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Roger Oakland</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:OaklandRoger.png]]<br />''Roger Oakland''
</div>
Roger Oakland is with Understanding the Times International, a countercult ministry. He has a number of articles at the organization's Web site, including many that attack Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, science, and New Age religious movements.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Phil Roberts</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:left;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:RobertsPhil.png]]<br />''Phil Roberts''
</div>
Phil Roberts is president of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Kansas City. He has written or contributed to at least two anti-Mormon books—''Mormonism Unmasked'' and ''The Counterfeit Gospel of Mormonism.'' (The latter he wrote with Francis J. Beckwith, Norman Geisler, Ron Rhodes, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner.)

Roberts served as director of the Interfaith Witness Department of the North American Mission Board for the Southern Baptist Convention where, in 1998, he was responsible for producing the video ''The Mormon Puzzle.'' Roberts has also authored several other articles that are clearly anti-Mormon in tone and focus.

'''To read more:'''
* {{FR-10-1-12}}
* {{FR-18-2-189}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Sandra Tanner</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Sandra Tanner and her late husband, Jerald Tanner, are certainly among the most prolific anti-Mormon authors. However, non-Mormon scholars of LDS issues have noted that the Tanners display a consistent bias in their work:

<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:TannerSandra.png]]<br />''Sandra Tanner''
</div>
:''[The Tanners] always assume the worst possible motives in assessing the actions of Mormon leaders, even when those leaders faced extremely complex problems with no simple solutions.... Every bit of evidence, even if it could be most plausibly presented in a positive way, is represented as yet another nail in the coffin being prepared for the Mormon Church. There is no spectrum of colors, only blacks and whites, good guys and villains in the Tanners' published writings.... The Tanners have repeatedly assumed a holier-than-thou stance, refusing to be fair in applying the same debate standards of absolute rectitude which they demand of Mormonism to their own actions, writings, and beliefs.''
::<small>—{{Dialogue1|author=Lawrence Foster|article=Career Apostates:Reflections on the Works of Jerald and Sandra Tanner|vol=17|num=2|date=Summer 1984|start=45|end=46}}</small>

Sandra Tanner's research is agenda-driven and unreliable. Sincere seekers of the truth about Latter-day Saint beliefs and history deserve more reliable sources.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Jerald_and_Sandra_Tanner|Reviews of Jerald and Sandra Tanner]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Chip Thompson</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:ThompsonChip.png]]<br />''Chip Thompson''
</div>
Chip Thompson director of Tri-Grace Ministries in Ephraim, UT. Tri-Grace Ministries runs a college house facility, which is "intended to be safe haven for all Christian students who attend Snow College." His advisory board includes:
* Bill Mckeever, (Mormon Research Ministries, Sandy, UT)
* Luke Wilson, (Institute for Religious Research, Grand Rapids, MI)
* Keith Walker, (Evidence Ministries, San Antonio, TX)
* Bob Betts, (Board Member, Concerned Christians, Mesa, AZ)
* Timothy Oliver, (Utah Director, Watchman Fellowship, Santaquin, UT)

It is curious that a facility for college students should have a board composed entirely of professional anti-Mormons.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">John Whitcomb</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
<div style="float:right;text-align:center;margin-right:0.9em;padding-left:1em;">
[[Image:WhitcombJohn.png]]<br />''John Whitcomb''
</div>
Dr. John Whitcomb, Th.D., is president of Whitcomb Ministries and former professor of Theology and Old Testament studies at Graceland Theological Seminary. Whitcomb is also co-author of ''The Genesis Flood'' which helped play a founding role in the modern "Creation Science" movement (although Whitcomb is a theologian rather than a scientist). Whitcomb believes in a young earth, a global flood, and an inerrant Bible that should be intepreted literally. He also claims that there were 1,000 different kinds of dinosaurs on the ark and he is critical of not only evolution, but also of progressive creationism and intelligent design.

Despite the fact that DNA disproves these beliefs with far more rigor than the Book of Mormon, Dr. Whitcomb has agreed to appear in this DVD which makes appeals to DNA science.

|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/The Good Test

2007-03-24T03:55:10Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: The Good Test}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">This portion of the video contains random interviews with numerous people asking them if they have ever lied, stolen, cheated, etc. As the interviews progress it becomes obvious that we all have committed, and continue to commit sins. We all fall short of perfection. Justly judged on our actions, we would not be allowed into heaven. As the video points out, however, Christ died for our sins so that we might be saved.</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints wholeheartedly agree that we all fall short of perfection, that we cannot return to God solely by our own efforts or good works, and that the grace of Christ—by way of his atoning sacrifice—is necessary in order for us to be with Heavenly Father in the hereafter. While the video admonishes believers to repent, LDS assert that it is necessary to repent of our sins in order to fully take advantage of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

It is only through repentance that we will be able to meet the obligation stated in {{s||Matthew|5|8}} to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." It is obvious that we have all sinned and need to make significant changes in our sinful lives.

'''To read more:'''
* Links to several articles on the topic of salvation can be found here: {{fairlink|url=http://fairlds.org/apol/ai053.html}}
|-

|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Call to Leaders

2007-03-24T03:51:31Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Call to LDS Leaders}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">This portion of the video calls for LDS leaders to stop the supposed deception of Mormonism.

"You’d be the hero of all time to the LDS people if you finally admitted Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Beloved you know that. That Mormonism is not true. The Book of Mormon is not true. Joseph Smith is not true. Joseph Smith deceived you and deceived your people. Don’t go on with this deception. So we pray of you, Mormon leaders, have the courage to admit that you’re wrong." (Floyd McElveen)</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This implies that leaders actually know that Joseph Smith was a fraud and that the Book of Mormon is false, and that LDS leaders simply need to ''admit'' the decption and take the steps necessary to lead Mormons out of the Church and instead to Christ. Who granted the critics insight into the minds, beliefs, hearts, and souls of the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ?

Critics should recall the admonition of Jesus:

: Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.({{s||Matthew|7|1-2}})

The implication that LDS leaders actually know that the Mormonism is false has become fashionable in some anti-Mormon circles. This claim is designed to add credibility to the anti-Mormon accusation that the LDS Church is not only wrong, but deceptive. Most critics know that the greatest damage can be done to an LDS testimony if a member comes to believe that the Church (or LDS leaders) is deceitful or hiding something. Many people handle conflicting information without jeopardizing their testimonies, but most people can't handle the feeling of being lied to. Generally, once someone feels that the Church has deceived them, they are no longer willing to examine rebuttals to anti-Mormon accusations. Critics are keenly aware that in many (if not most) instances it is not the anti-LDS information itself that generally makes people leave, but it's the perception that the information was "hidden." It is the feelings of deception and betrayal that ultimately drive people out the Church.

The fact is, however, that LDS leaders give of their time (a tremendous amount of time) and talents, because they love Christ, they love God's children, and they believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. Many LDS leaders give up lucrative professions and sacrifice time they could be spending in retirement or with family, to dedicate themselves to the Restored Gospel. They really believe in the the teachings of the Church and they labor continuously leading people to Christ and the fulness of the Gospel as found the latter-day church that Christ restored.

Brigham Young, like many Church leaders, taught that no member should rely on their leader's convictions—each member must know for themselves:

:''I will say a few words in regard to your belief in being led, guided, and directed by one man. Brother Jackman has said that our enemies hate the fact of our being led by one man. Thousands of times my soul has been lifted to God the Father, in the name of Jesus, to make that verily true in every sense of the word, that we may be led by the man Jesus Christ, through Joseph Smith the Prophet. You may inquire how we are to know that we are so led.

:''I refer you to the exhortation you have heard so frequently from me. Do not be deceived, any of you; if you are deceived, it is because you deceive yourselves. '''''You may know whether you are led right or wrong''''', as well as you know the way home; for every principle God has revealed carries its own convictions of its truth to the human mind, and there is no calling of God to man on earth but what brings with it the evidences of its authenticity...'''''Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually'''''.''
::<small>—{{JoD9_1|start=150|author=Brigham Young|title=Eternal Punishment–'Mormonism,' Etc.|date=12 January 1862}}</small>
'''To read more''':

* "The Living Christ: Testimony of the Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" {{link|url=http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,163-1-10-1,FF.html}}
|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/The Good Test

2007-03-24T03:42:35Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: The Good Test}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">This portion of the video contains random interviews with numerous people asking them if they have ever lied, stolen, cheated, etc. As the interviews progress it becomes obvious that we all have committed, and continue to commit sins. We all fall short of perfection. Justly judged on our actions, we would not be allowed into heaven. As the video points out, however, Christ died for our sins so that we might be saved.</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints wholeheartedly agree that we all fall short of perfection, that we cannot return to God solely by our own efforts or good works, and that the grace of Christ-- by way of his atoning sacrifice-- is necessary in order for us to be with Heavenly Father in the hereafter. While the video admonishes believers to repent, LDS assert that it is necessary to repent of our sins in order to fully take advantage of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is only through repentance that we will be able to meet the obligation stated in {{s||Matthew|5|8}} to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." It is obvious that we have all sinned and need to make significant changes in our sinful lives.

For Further Reading
* "Salvation" {{fairlink|url=http://fairlds.org/apol/ai053.html}}

|-

|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Call to Leaders

2007-03-24T03:06:45Z

JanAnderson:

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Call to Leaders

2007-03-24T03:05:38Z

JanAnderson:

Search for the Truth DVD:What is Hell?

2007-03-24T02:46:01Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: What is Hell?}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "We see that here [{{s||Revelation|20|11-15}}] is what happens to people that are judged according to their works. They do not go into heaven. If you read this carefully and look at the words, it says 'and death and hell,' not death, part of death, not part of hell—all of them, kit and kaboodle. All the huge vast people that are on that broad road that leads to hell the Bible tells us about, all of them were cast into hell because they insisted on being judged according to their works. It breaks my heart to think people think they're going to be good enough to get to heaven. We're not good. We're lost. We desperately need Jesus. You must realize you're a lost sinner before there's any hope for you." - Floyd McElveen, Author and Lifetime Evangelist</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

John tells us:

:And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. ({{s||Revelation|20|12}})

Mr. McElveen is telling us that this isn't ''all'' the dead, only those that insisted on being judged "according to their works." But does the scripture actually say that? John speaks of "the dead, small and great" being judged from "the book of life." What is this book of life?

Paul refers to the book of life and tells us that those who labor for the Lord are listed in it:

:And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. ({{s||Phillippians|4|3}})

John is told that those who overcome the world will be kept in the book of life:

:He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. ({{s||Revelation|3|5}})

John further says that a person that alters his book of Revelation will have his name removed from the Book of Life:

:For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book...if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life.... ({{s||Revelation|22|18-19}})

Moses in his pleading on Israel's behalf asks the Lord to blot his name from the Lord's book if God will not forgive Israel. The Lord tells Moses that those who sin against Him are the ones who will be blotted from His book:

:And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin—; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. ({{s||Exodus|3|31-33}})

So how do we get into God's book of life?
*By serving God (Paul).
*By overcoming the world (John).
*By believing God's prophets and apostles and not misquoting what they say (John).
*By trying to live as righteously as we are able (Moses).

True, we will fail to live a perfect life, but we trust in the redemptive power of Christ and His atonement to cleanse us from our imperfections, when we have done our best to follow Him. Paul expresses this well to the Romans:

:What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
:{{parabreak}}
:Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
:{{parabreak}}
:Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
:{{parabreak}}
:But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ({{s||Romans|6|1-2,6,12-16,22-23}})

LDS Christians recognize that their works cannot save them, but believe that by trusting in Christ, who is mighty to save, they can, through their good works, honor Christ, and serve their fellowman. They believe that their names will therefore be written in the Lamb's book of life, and that they will "be found on the right hand of God" at the last day ({{s||Mosiah|5|9}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "We have a beggar [in {{s||Luke|16|19-24}}]. He laid at the gate of the rich man. Dogs licked his sores. Nobody cared whether he lived or died. I can imagine a huge parade when the rich man died. But the rich man was in hell. He'd sold his soul for a mess of porridge, for goods, so many do that today. And yet, the poor man, the man who was starving, the man who was sick, went to be with Jesus because he knew Him—he believed in Him. That's the end of every person that doesn't know Jesus—a place called hell.... Lazarus had nothing. He was poverty stricken, he was sick, he was hurting, he was miserable, probably partly because of malnutrition because he wasn't fed by the rich man. I would think God would give (inaudible) atrocious thing the rich man did. My friend (inaudible) is atrocious when you see somebody in need and let them suffer. And that Lazarus was in heaven forever because he trusted Jesus. But the rich man is in hell." - Floyd McElveen, Author and Lifetime Evangelist</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The story of the rich man and Lazarus was told by Christ to teach humility, love, and compassion. Certainly it also references the inability of the unrepentent to change.

There is a certain irony in Mr. McElveen using this story. For the rich man had all he needed, while the poor man was willing to accept whatever the Lord would give him. Similarly, Biblical inerrantists believe they have all they need and won't allow for modern prophets and revelation, while the LDS are willing to "...believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." ({{s||Articles+of+Faith|1|9}})

Even more telling is his condemnation of the rich man for failing to do works, such as caring for his poor neighbor. Latter-day Saints also consider such works to be an essential act of someone who is following Christ, and so many of them engage in acts of charity and service to people, in and out of the Church, who need assistance.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "And yet hell has an end too. Not that people get out of hell, they never do, but in the 20th chapter of Revelation you find out. You see the body has not yet joined the part of man that goes to be in hell—the spirit. But that's going to happen in the resurrection—the second resurrection we spoke of. That body, which will be resurrected, the unsaved dead, will join that soul already in torment and then body and soul both will be cast into hell. And here is that awful picture. Thank God the resurrection of the just! The resurrection of the saved! And they will go to be with Jesus Christ forever." - Floyd McElveen, Author and Lifetime Evangelist</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints teach the same doctrines. That Mr. McElveen believes they need to learn these truths demonstrates once again that he does not understand LDS doctrine.

Alma<sup>2</sup> taught:

:...the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and [after death] these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
:Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.
:{{parabreak}}
:The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame.
:And now...this is the restoration of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets—
:And then shall the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of God.
:But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup. ({{s||Alma|40|13-14,23-26}}.)

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Now let's talk for a moment about that place called hell—hell itself being cast into the lake of fire. There will be torment for ever and ever. James 1:17 says, 'Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.' What it is saying in this verse is that everything that's good, its source is God—everything. There's nothing that's good that didn't come from God. The reason you can breathe is because every moment God gives you breath. The reason your heart is beating is because every moment God propels that heart to beat. Everything." - Floyd McElveen, Author and Lifetime Evangelist</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, Latter-day Saints teach these same doctrines.

In the Book of Mormon, King Benjamin explained:

:I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—
:I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants. ({{s||Mosiah|2|20-21}}.)

Mr. EcElveen labors under the false idea that Latter-day Saints believe that their own righteousness and goodness is what qualifies them for exaltation. As we have attempted to explain in this response, Latter-day Saints do good works ''because the Lord asks them to and because they love the Lord and their fellow man.'' We do not believe it is our works that resurrect us and bring us back into the presence of God—only Jesus' atonement can do that. We simply seek to follow his counsel to love and serve others, as true disciples should.

One area where we ''would'' disagree with Mr. McElveen is in his characterization of hell as a ''literal'' lake of fire and brimstone. The Bible and other LDS scriptures certainly describe it that way, but the Book of Mormon makes clear that the "torment [of the wicked] is ''as'' a lake of fire and brimstone" ({{s|2|Nephi|9|16}})—that is to say, it is a torment, but the "fire and brimstone" imagery is metaphorical. (More on this below.)

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Now, you have refused God. You have counted it of no account and you've thought that other things were much more important and so you (inaudible) into living for yourself. You may even be a professing Christian. You may be a Mormon. You may be one who is in a true Church. You may be depending on other things. But according to God if you have not been born again, if you've not been cleansed through the blood of Christ, you are not a child of God." - Floyd McElveen, Author and Lifetime Evangelist</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints teach the doctrines of adoption through Christ, despite Mr. McElveen's claims.

Speaking to the righteous, the Book of Mormon says:

:And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. ({{s||Mosiah|5|7}}; compare {{s||Mosiah|27|25}})

Speaking to the wicked who die in their sins:

:But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head. ({{s||Helaman|13|38}}; compare {{s||Alma|34|35}})

Saying someone is "not a child of God" is misleading unless one uses precise definitions. This is examined in the next heading.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "You see? Many people think everybody is a child of God. The Bible says that's not true. You have to be born again, receiving Jesus in order to become a child of God. He said 'to as many received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God' ({{s||John|1|12}})."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The Bible—and the Latter-day Saints—teaches two distinct concepts about our relationships to God. Mr. McElveen is incorrectly conflating them.

'''The universal Fatherhood of God'''

All mortals are children of God in the sense that God is the creator of their spirit bodies:

:Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? ({{s||Hebrews|12|9}})

Note that God is "the Father of spirits" even if we are not in subjection to Him (though we are encouraged to be). Paul also described God as:

:One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. ({{s||Ephesians|4|6}})

'''Adoptive Fatherhood of God and Christ'''

All mortals squander their inheritance, as it were. By committing sin, they forfeit any right to God's blessings and kingdom. Only Jesus lived a sinless life; only He is a worthy heir. Through the grace of Christ, the rest of us may be adopted as "children of God"—we are readmitted into the family of God.

:For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
:For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
:The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
:And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. ({{s||Romans|8|14-17}}).

:But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son...
:To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. ({{s||Galatians|4|4-5}})

:Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. ({{s||Ether|3|14}})

It is interesting that Biblical scholars consider Paul's teachings about adoption through Christ as sons ("filial adoption") to be his way of teaching the doctrine of human deification:

:''Deification (Greek ''Theosis'') is for orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, '''according to the Bible''', is 'made in the image and likeness of God,'...it is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become God by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both O.T. and N.T. ({{s||Psalms|82|6}}; {{s|2|Peter|1|4}}), and it is essentially the teaching both of St. Paul, though he tends to use the language of filial adoption ({{s||Romans|8|9-17}}, {{s||Galatians|4|5-7}}) and the fourth gospel ({{s||John|17|21-23}}).''
::<small>—Alan Richardson (editor), ''The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology'' (Westminster: John Knox Press, 1983). ISBN 0664213987. (emphasis added).</small>

Thus, Mr. McElveen distorts the Bible's teachings on this point. Everyone is a child of God in terms of spiritual parentage; no one lives worthy of that heritage without adoption into the family of God through Christ.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Deification of man]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Now, here you are, you're in hell. What is the situation? The Bible calls it a lake of fire, a furnace of fire, everlasting fire. There are some who say, well surely it couldn't fire. It really is fire. God doesn't kid about things like that. He's not a 'scare God.' He simply tells you the truth. And this is not a parable we read in Luke, the 16th chapter—God never used proper names in a parable. Even (inaudible) a picture of something worse, but here we are now, here's what happens. Every good and perfect thing remember that's a gift from God is gone. Gone is gone. You refused Him, you turned Him down. You turned down Jesus, you turned down His word or if you professed to accept Him and you still went your own way and did your own thing. {{s||Isaiah|53|6}}: All we like sheep have gone astray, we've turned everyone to his own way and the Lord has laid on him the sin of us all."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is true that the Bible refers to Hell as a place of fire, but it is also true that the Bible uses other symbolic language to describe Hell. For example, three times in the gospel of Matthew, the destination of the unsaved is described as "outer darkness." (See {{s||Matthew|8|12}}, {{s||Matthew|22|13}}, and {{s||Matthew|25|30}}.) Jesus employed much of the imagery and symbols of the Hebrew Scriptures in His teaching, and in particular He frequently alluded to the last verse of the Book of Isaiah. (See {{s||Isaiah|66|24}} and {{s||Mark|9|43-44}}.)

And Jesus did, in fact, use proper names in parables. Jesus frequently used proper names for places, such as Jerusalem and Jericho (see the parable of the Good Samaritan in {{s||Luke|10|30-35}}). Note also that in the parable of the Good Samaritan Jesus used the proper names of various groups, such as Levites and Samaritans. We also have an instance where Jesus used a proper name of a person—it is found in {{s||Luke|16|19-31}} as referenced by Mr. McElveen. It may be that some Bible readers may want to take this parable to be a literal story, but to do so wrests the verses in Luke from their cultural and literary environment.

And despite the Mr. McElveen's suggestion that he is avoiding scare tactics, his method of presenting his view of Hell seems exactly to be to get viewers to reconsider their current religious convictions by evoking images of eternal burning and torment for rejecting his religious message.

'''To read more:'''

[http://lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b3bc55cbf541229058520974e44916a0/?vgnextoid=ed462ce2b446c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=1ecf991a83d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1 LDS View of Hell]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Here's what happens [in hell]. You will never again hear beautiful music. You will never again see a beautiful cloud. You will never again feel the soft touch of wind on your face. You will never again have a lover's embrace. You will never again have one moment of (inaudible). There will no moment of pleasure, not ever. Eternity rolls on. And the Bible also says you're in outer darkness, you're in (inaudible) darkness and yet in a burning fire. No one can explain that, but God can do it. He had a bush burn and not be consumed that Moses saw.<br>
"Listen my friend, hell is so awful that when I think of hell, many, many times I've wept as I think of people going there—and Mormon friends, LDS friends, that's just the beginning. You hear of doctors treating people for depression. You'll have the worst depression the world has ever seen. Nobody will treat. No psychiatrist will be there treating you. No doctor will be giving you aspirin. No doctor will give you something to alleviate the pain. You're there. And interminably it goes on. Every day it seems to be worse than the day before. One minute is like an hour. One hour is like a week. One week is like a month. One month is like a year and still you burn and you scream like the rich man, you'd give everything you ever owned for one drop of water to cool your tongue. Oh my God, oh my God what a fool I've been. I'm in hell. I didn't believe. I knew many of the things in the Bible came true. I don't know I didn't believe hell would come true. You're in hell. You're in hell, you're abandoned by God and man." - Floyd McElveen, Author and Lifetime Evangelist</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

In this segment we see where Mr. McElveen himself acknowledges that we run into problems when we try to interpret figurative language, symbols, and metaphors as being literal descriptions. Mr. McElveen can do no more than end up describing his dark fire of Hell as some kind of indescribable miracle. Mr. McElveen does a disservice to the Gospel of Jesus Christ when the appeal to follow Jesus is couched in lengthy, fearful warnings rather than as an invitation to come to Jesus to partake of the waters of Life. This sort of presentation has the unfortunate result of casting the beautiful gift of the Savior as merely the absence of horrific, eternal punishment.

What is also interesting is that many of his assertions about the conditions of hell have no Biblical basis. They represent McElveen's interpretation, not God's revelation.

Most fascinating is that McElveen rejects the Latter-day Saint doctrine of eternal marriage, and yet claims here that, in hell, "You will never again have a lover's embrace." Does this mean that in heaven one ''will'' experience a lover's embrace? If so, is this love within the bounds or marriage? If not, how is Mr. McElveen's hell any different from his heaven, when it comes to this particular point? Mr. McElveen needs to explain his seeming inconsistency on this point.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "My friends, quit pitying yourself. Hell is awful and God is warning you and warning you—he's warning you through me. I say with all my heart and all my soul I don't want one Mormon to go to hell. I don't want anybody to go to hell. I want you saved by the blood of Jesus and I want to enjoy heaven with you forever." - Floyd McElveen, Author and Lifetime Evangelist</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Likewise, Latter-day Saints wish with all their hearts that Mormons, Evangelicals, and every other person will return to live with God in heaven. Latter-day Saints firmly believe that salvation lies in Christ alone ({{s||Mosiah|3|17}}) and that anyone who has faith in Christ, truly repents, and follows the example of Jesus will be lifted up at the last day by the grace and mercy of God (for example, see {{s||3Nephi|27|19-22}}, {{s||Mosiah|23|22}}, {{s||Ether|4|19}}). Latter-day Saints invite all men and women of all religions to hear the restored message of the Gospel and to accept the atoning blood of Jesus Christ as the only means of salvation.

'''To read more:'''

[http://lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=e88b8949f2f6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____ LDS Beliefs about the Atonement of Christ]

|-

|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Search for the Truth DVD:What is Hell?

2007-03-24T02:42:14Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: What is Hell?}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "We see that here [{{s||Revelation|20|11-15}}] is what happens to people that are judged according to their works. They do not go into heaven. If you read this carefully and look at the words, it says 'and death and hell,' not death, part of death, not part of hell—all of them, kit and kaboodle. All the huge vast people that are on that broad road that leads to hell the Bible tells us about, all of them were cast into hell because they insisted on being judged according to their works. It breaks my heart to think people think they're going to be good enough to get to heaven. We're not good. We're lost. We desperately need Jesus. You must realize you're a lost sinner before there's any hope for you." - Floyd McElveen, Author and Lifetime Evangelist</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

John tells us:

:And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. ({{s||Revelation|20|12}})

Mr. McElveen is telling us that this isn't ''all'' the dead, only those that insisted on being judged "according to their works." But does the scripture actually say that? John speaks of "the dead, small and great" being judged from "the book of life." What is this book of life?

Paul refers to the book of life and tells us that those who labor for the Lord are listed in it:

:And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. ({{s||Phillippians|4|3}})

John is told that those who overcome the world will be kept in the book of life:

:He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. ({{s||Revelation|3|5}})

John further says that a person that alters his book of Revelation will have his name removed from the Book of Life:

:For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book...if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life.... ({{s||Revelation|22|18-19}})

Moses in his pleading on Israel's behalf asks the Lord to blot his name from the Lord's book if God will not forgive Israel. The Lord tells Moses that those who sin against Him are the ones who will be blotted from His book:

:And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin—; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. ({{s||Exodus|3|31-33}})

So how do we get into God's book of life?
*By serving God (Paul).
*By overcoming the world (John).
*By believing God's prophets and apostles and not misquoting what they say (John).
*By trying to live as righteously as we are able (Moses).

True, we will fail to live a perfect life, but we trust in the redemptive power of Christ and His atonement to cleanse us from our imperfections, when we have done our best to follow Him. Paul expresses this well to the Romans:

:What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
:{{parabreak}}
:Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
:{{parabreak}}
:Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
:{{parabreak}}
:But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ({{s||Romans|6|1-2,6,12-16,22-23}})

LDS Christians recognize that their works cannot save them, but believe that by trusting in Christ, who is mighty to save, they can, through their good works, honor Christ, and serve their fellowman. They believe that their names will therefore be written in the Lamb's book of life, and that they will "be found on the right hand of God" at the last day ({{s||Mosiah|5|9}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "We have a beggar [in {{s||Luke|16|19-24}}]. He laid at the gate of the rich man. Dogs licked his sores. Nobody cared whether he lived or died. I can imagine a huge parade when the rich man died. But the rich man was in hell. He'd sold his soul for a mess of porridge, for goods, so many do that today. And yet, the poor man, the man who was starving, the man who was sick, went to be with Jesus because he knew Him—he believed in Him. That's the end of every person that doesn't know Jesus—a place called hell.... Lazarus had nothing. He was poverty stricken, he was sick, he was hurting, he was miserable, probably partly because of malnutrition because he wasn't fed by the rich man. I would think God would give (inaudible) atrocious thing the rich man did. My friend (inaudible) is atrocious when you see somebody in need and let them suffer. And that Lazarus was in heaven forever because he trusted Jesus. But the rich man is in hell." - Floyd McElveen, Author and Lifetime Evangelist</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The story of the rich man and Lazarus was told by Christ to teach humility, love, and compassion. Certainly it also references the inability of the unrepentent to change.

There is a certain irony in Mr. McElveen using this story. For the rich man had all he needed, while the poor man was willing to accept whatever the Lord would give him. Similarly, Biblical inerrantists believe they have all they need and won't allow for modern prophets and revelation, while the LDS are willing to "...believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." ({{s||Articles+of+Faith|1|9}})

Even more telling is his condemnation of the rich man for failing to do works, such as caring for his poor neighbor. Latter-day Saints also consider such works to be an essential act of someone who is following Christ, and so many of them engage in acts of charity and service to people, in and out of the Church, who need assistance.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "And yet hell has an end too. Not that people get out of hell, they never do, but in the 20th chapter of Revelation you find out. You see the body has not yet joined the part of man that goes to be in hell—the spirit. But that's going to happen in the resurrection—the second resurrection we spoke of. That body, which will be resurrected, the unsaved dead, will join that soul already in torment and then body and soul both will be cast into hell. And here is that awful picture. Thank God the resurrection of the just! The resurrection of the saved! And they will go to be with Jesus Christ forever." - Floyd McElveen, Author and Lifetime Evangelist</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints teach the same doctrines. That Mr. McElveen believes they need to learn these truths demonstrates once again that he does not understand LDS doctrine.

Alma<sup>2</sup> taught:

:...the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and [after death] these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.
:Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.
:{{parabreak}}
:The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame.
:And now...this is the restoration of which has been spoken by the mouths of the prophets—
:And then shall the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of God.
:But behold, an awful death cometh upon the wicked; for they die as to things pertaining to things of righteousness; for they are unclean, and no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of God; but they are cast out, and consigned to partake of the fruits of their labors or their works, which have been evil; and they drink the dregs of a bitter cup. ({{s||Alma|40|13-14,23-26}}.)

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Now let's talk for a moment about that place called hell—hell itself being cast into the lake of fire. There will be torment for ever and ever. James 1:17 says, 'Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.' What it is saying in this verse is that everything that's good, its source is God—everything. There's nothing that's good that didn't come from God. The reason you can breathe is because every moment God gives you breath. The reason your heart is beating is because every moment God propels that heart to beat. Everything." - Floyd McElveen, Author and Lifetime Evangelist</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, Latter-day Saints teach these same doctrines.

In the Book of Mormon, King Benjamin explained:

:I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—
:I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants. ({{s||Mosiah|2|20-21}}.)

Mr. EcElveen labors under the false idea that Latter-day Saints believe that their own righteousness and goodness is what qualifies them for exaltation. As we have attempted to explain in this response, Latter-day Saints do good works ''because the Lord asks them to and because they love the Lord and their fellow man.'' We do not believe it is our works that resurrect us and bring us back into the presence of God—only Jesus' atonement can do that. We simply seek to follow his counsel to love and serve others, as true disciples should.

One area where we ''would'' disagree with Mr. McElveen is in his characterization of hell as a ''literal'' lake of fire and brimstone. The Bible and other LDS scriptures certainly describe it that way, but the Book of Mormon makes clear that the "torment [of the wicked] is ''as'' a lake of fire and brimstone" ({{s|2|Nephi|9|16}})—that is to say, it is a torment, but the "fire and brimstone" imagery is metaphorical. (More on this below.)

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Now, you have refused God. You have counted it of no account and you've thought that other things were much more important and so you (inaudible) into living for yourself. You may even be a professing Christian. You may be a Mormon. You may be one who is in a true Church. You may be depending on other things. But according to God if you have not been born again, if you've not been cleansed through the blood of Christ, you are not a child of God." - Floyd McElveen, Author and Lifetime Evangelist</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints teach the doctrines of adoption through Christ, despite Mr. McElveen's claims.

Speaking to the righteous, the Book of Mormon says:

:And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. ({{s||Mosiah|5|7}}; compare {{s||Mosiah|27|25}})

Speaking to the wicked who die in their sins:

:But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head. ({{s||Helaman|13|38}}; compare {{s||Alma|34|35}})

Saying someone is "not a child of God" is misleading unless one uses precise definitions. This is examined in the next heading.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "You see? Many people think everybody is a child of God. The Bible says that's not true. You have to be born again, receiving Jesus in order to become a child of God. He said 'to as many received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God' ({{s||John|1|12}})."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

The Bible—and the Latter-day Saints—teaches two distinct concepts about our relationships to God. Mr. McElveen is incorrectly conflating them.

'''The universal Fatherhood of God'''

All mortals are children of God in the sense that God is the creator of their spirit bodies:

:Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? ({{s||Hebrews|12|9}})

Note that God is "the Father of spirits" even if we are not in subjection to Him (though we are encouraged to be). Paul also described God as:

:One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. ({{s||Ephesians|4|6}})

'''Adoptive Fatherhood of God and Christ'''

All mortals squander their inheritance, as it were. By committing sin, they forfeit any right to God's blessings and kingdom. Only Jesus lived a sinless life; only He is a worthy heir. Through the grace of Christ, the rest of us may be adopted as "children of God"—we are readmitted into the family of God.

:For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
:For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
:The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
:And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. ({{s||Romans|8|14-17}}).

:But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son...
:To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. ({{s||Galatians|4|4-5}})

:Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters. ({{s||Ether|3|14}})

It is interesting that Biblical scholars consider Paul's teachings about adoption through Christ as sons ("filial adoption") to be his way of teaching the doctrine of human deification:

:''Deification (Greek ''Theosis'') is for orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, '''according to the Bible''', is 'made in the image and likeness of God,'...it is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become God by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both O.T. and N.T. ({{s||Psalms|82|6}}; {{s|2|Peter|1|4}}), and it is essentially the teaching both of St. Paul, though he tends to use the language of filial adoption ({{s||Romans|8|9-17}}, {{s||Galatians|4|5-7}}) and the fourth gospel ({{s||John|17|21-23}}).''
::<small>—Alan Richardson (editor), ''The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology'' (Westminster: John Knox Press, 1983). ISBN 0664213987. (emphasis added).</small>

Thus, Mr. McElveen distorts the Bible's teachings on this point. Everyone is a child of God in terms of spiritual parentage; no one lives worthy of that heritage without adoption into the family of God through Christ.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Deification of man]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Now, here you are, you're in hell. What is the situation? The Bible calls it a lake of fire, a furnace of fire, everlasting fire. There are some who say, well surely it couldn't fire. It really is fire. God doesn't kid about things like that. He's not a 'scare God.' He simply tells you the truth. And this is not a parable we read in Luke, the 16th chapter—God never used proper names in a parable. Even (inaudible) a picture of something worse, but here we are now, here's what happens. Every good and perfect thing remember that's a gift from God is gone. Gone is gone. You refused Him, you turned Him down. You turned down Jesus, you turned down His word or if you professed to accept Him and you still went your own way and did your own thing. {{s||Isaiah|53|6}}: All we like sheep have gone astray, we've turned everyone to his own way and the Lord has laid on him the sin of us all."</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is true that the Bible refers to Hell as a place of fire, but it is also true that the Bible uses other symbolic language to describe Hell. For example, three times in the gospel of Matthew, the destination of the unsaved is described as "outer darkness." (See {{s||Matthew|8|12}}, {{s||Matthew|22|13}}, and {{s||Matthew|25|30}}.) Jesus employed much of the imagery and symbols of the Hebrew Scriptures in His teaching, and in particular He frequently alluded to the last verse of the Book of Isaiah. (See {{s||Isaiah|66|24}} and {{s||Mark|9|43-44}}.)

And Jesus did, in fact, use proper names in parables. Jesus frequently used proper names for places, such as Jerusalem and Jericho (see the parable of the Good Samaritan in {{s||Luke|10|30-35}}). Note also that in the parable of the Good Samaritan Jesus used the proper names of various groups, such as Levites and Samaritans. We also have an instance where Jesus used a proper name of a person—it is found in {{s||Luke|16|19-31}} as referenced by Mr. McElveen. It may be that some Bible readers may want to take this parable to be a literal story, but to do so wrests the verses in Luke from their cultural and literary environment.

And despite the Mr. McElveen's suggestion that he is avoiding scare tactics, his method of presenting his view of Hell seems exactly to be to get viewers to reconsider their current religious convictions by evoking images of eternal burning and torment for rejecting his religious message.

'''To read more:'''

[http://lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b3bc55cbf541229058520974e44916a0/?vgnextoid=ed462ce2b446c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=1ecf991a83d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1 LDS View of Hell]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Here's what happens [in hell]. You will never again hear beautiful music. You will never again see a beautiful cloud. You will never again feel the soft touch of wind on your face. You will never again have a lover's embrace. You will never again have one moment of (inaudible). There will no moment of pleasure, not ever. Eternity rolls on. And the Bible also says you're in outer darkness, you're in (inaudible) darkness and yet in a burning fire. No one can explain that, but God can do it. He had a bush burn and not be consumed that Moses saw.<br>
"Listen my friend, hell is so awful that when I think of hell, many, many times I've wept as I think of people going there—and Mormon friends, LDS friends, that's just the beginning. You hear of doctors treating people for depression. You'll have the worst depression the world has ever seen. Nobody will treat. No psychiatrist will be there treating you. No doctor will be giving you aspirin. No doctor will give you something to alleviate the pain. You're there. And interminably it goes on. Every day it seems to be worse than the day before. One minute is like an hour. One hour is like a week. One week is like a month. One month is like a year and still you burn and you scream like the rich man, you'd give everything you ever owned for one drop of water to cool your tongue. Oh my God, oh my God what a fool I've been. I'm in hell. I didn't believe. I knew many of the things in the Bible came true. I don't know I didn't believe hell would come true. You're in hell. You're in hell, you're abandoned by God and man." - Floyd McElveen, Author and Lifetime Evangelist</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

In this segment we see where Mr. McElveen himself acknowledges that we run into problems when we try to interpret figurative language, symbols, and metaphors as being literal descriptions. Mr. McElveen can do no more than end up describing his dark fire of Hell as some kind of indescribable miracle. Mr. McElveen does a disservice to the Gospel of Jesus Christ when the appeal to follow Jesus is couched in lengthy, fearful warnings rather than as an invitation to come to Jesus to partake of the waters of Life. This sort of presentation has the unfortunate result of casting the beautiful gift of the Savior as merely the absence of horrific, eternal punishment.

What is also interesting is that many of his assertions about the conditions of hell have no Biblical basis. They represent McElveen's interpretation, not God's revelation.

Most fascinating is that McElveen rejects the Latter-day Saint doctrine of eternal marriage, and yet claims here that, in hell, "You will never again have a lover's embrace." Does this mean that in heaven one ''will'' experience a lover's embrace? If so, is this love within the bounds or marriage? If not, how is Mr. McElveen's hell any different from his heaven, when it comes to this particular point? Mr. McElveen needs to explain his seeming inconsistency on this point.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "My friends, quit pitying yourself. Hell is awful and God is warning you and warning you—he's warning you through me. I say with all my heart and all my soul I don't want one Mormon to go to hell. I don't want anybody to go to hell. I want you saved by the blood of Jesus and I want to enjoy heaven with you forever." - Floyd McElveen, Author and Lifetime Evangelist</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Likewise, Latter-day Saints wish with all their hearts that Mormons, Evangelicals, and every other person will return to live with God in heaven. Latter-day Saints firmly believe that salvation lies in Christ alone ({{s||Mosiah|3|17}})and that anyone who has faith in Christ, truly repents, and follows the example of Jesus will be lifted up at the last day by the grace and mercy of God (for example, see {{s||3Nephi|27|19-22}}, {{s||Mosiah|23|22}}, {{s||Ether|4|19}}). Latter-day Saints invite all men and women of all religions to hear the restored message of the Gospel and to accept the atoning blood of Jesus Christ as the only means of salvation.

'''To read more:'''

[http://lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=e88b8949f2f6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____ LDS Beliefs about the Atonement of Christ]

|-

|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-24T02:29:38Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that God will give the Holy Spirit to them that ask ({{s||Luke|11|13}}). Moreover, one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from the Doctrine and Covenants ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/8 D&C 9:8]), and the same concept as recorded in Luke 24:32. Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge and truthfulness from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||John|14|26}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As explained above, LDS are depending on a witness of the Holy Spirit, not just “feelings” or what is in their heart and to do so is biblical ({{s||John|14:|26}}).

Mr McElveen's narrow view is correct that the Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip service to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admonition.

God, however, also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God is to be trusted. Certainly feelings and knowledge given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is always deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. While still living, Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. Latter-day Saints believe that this same promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information that has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings the ''feelings'' of peace and joy ({{scripture||Romans|14:|17}}). An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish. Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed. When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced or do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description that a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" and "burning of the bosom" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

A more 'neutral' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy, peace and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope viewers' feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffusion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the scriptures (i.e., the Old Testament since the NT wasn't written yet) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our '''''heart burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that can accompany the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen believes the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}) (emphasis added). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' that God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

Like the circular argument above, the Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet the critics, rightly, criticize this reasoning. Likewise, the Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for itself; we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself by a witness of the Spirit? The Book of Mormon asks us to pray to God to have its truthfulness revealed to us ({{s||Moroni|10|4}}).

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" that they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}</small> {{link|url=http://magazine.byu.edu/?act=view&a=1851}}

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-24T02:12:37Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that God will give the Holy Spirit to them that ask ({{s||Luke|11|13}}). Moreover, one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from the Doctrine and Covenants ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/8 D&C 9:8]), and the same concept as recorded in Luke 24:32. Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge and truthfulness from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||John|14|26}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As explained above, LDS are depending on a witness of the Holy Spirit, not just “feelings” or what is in their heart and to do so is biblical ({{s||John|14:|26}}).

Mr McElveen's narrow view is correct that the Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip service to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admonition.

God, however, also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God is to be trusted. Certainly feelings and knowledge given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is always deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. While still living, Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. Latter-day Saints believe that this same promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information that has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings the ''feelings'' of peace and joy ({{scripture||Romans|14:|17}}). An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish. Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed. When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced or do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description that a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" and "burning of the bosom" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

A more 'neutral' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy, peace and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope viewers' feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffusion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the scriptures (i.e., the Old Testament since the NT wasn't written yet) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our '''''heart burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that can accompany the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen believes the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}) (emphasis added). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' that God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

Like the circular argument above, the Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet the critics, rightly, criticize this reasoning. Likewise, the Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for itself; we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself by a witness of the Spirit? The Book of Mormon asks us to pray to God to have its truthfulness revealed to us ({{s||Moroni|10|4}}).

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" that they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small> http://magazine.byu.edu/?act=view&a=1851

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}


{{DVDRightColumn}}
|}
{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T03:07:37Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that God will give the Holy Spirit to them that ask ({{s||Luke|11|13}}). Moreover, one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge and truthfulness from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||John|14|26}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As explained above, LDS are depending on a witness of the Holy Spirit, not just “feelings” or what is in their heart and to do so is biblical ({{s||John|14:|26}}).

Mr McElveen's narrow view is correct that the Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip service to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admonition.

God, however, also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God is to be trusted. Certainly feelings and knowledge given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is always deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. While still living, Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. Latter-day Saints believe that this same promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information that has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings the ''feelings'' of peace and joy ({{scripture||Romans|14:|17}}. An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish. Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed. When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced or do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description that a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" and "burning of the bosom" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

A more 'neutral' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy, peace and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope viewers' feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffusion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the scriptures (i.e., the Old Testament since the NT wasn't written yet) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our '''''heart burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that can accompany the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen believes the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}) (emphasis added). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' that God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

Like the circular argument above, the Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet the critics, rightly, criticize this reasoning. Likewise, the Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for itself; we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself by a witness of the Spirit? The Book of Mormon asks us to pray to God to have its truthfulness revealed to us ({{s||Moroni|10|4}}).

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" that they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small> http://magazine.byu.edu/?act=view&a=1851

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T02:59:58Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that God will give the Holy Spirit to them that ask ({{s||Luke|11|13}}). Moreover, one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge and truthfulness from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||John|14|26}};{{s||Luke|2|25-6}}; {{s||Luke|12|12}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As explained above, LDS are depending on a witness of the Holy Spirit, not just “feelings” or what is in their heart and to do so is biblical ({{s||John|14:|26}}).

Mr McElveen's narrow view is correct that the Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip service to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admonition.

God, however, also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God is to be trusted. Certainly feelings and knowledge given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is always deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. While still living, Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. Latter-day Saints believe that this same promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information that has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings the ''feelings'' of peace and joy ({{scripture||Romans|14:|17}}. An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish. Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed. When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced or do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description that a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" and "burning of the bosom" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

A more 'neutral' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy, peace and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope viewers' feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffusion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the scriptures (i.e., the Old Testament since the NT wasn't written yet) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our '''''heart burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that can accompany the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen believes the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}) (emphasis added). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' that God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

Like the circular argument above, the Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet the critics, rightly, criticize this reasoning. Likewise, the Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for itself; we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself by a witness of the Spirit? The Book of Mormon asks us to pray to God to have its truthfulness revealed to us ({{s||Moroni|10|4}}).

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" that they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small> http://magazine.byu.edu/?act=view&a=1851

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T02:51:37Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that God will give the Holy Spirit to them that ask ({{s||Luke|11:|13}}). Moreover, one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge and truthfulness from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||John|14|26}}; {{s||Luke|2|25-6}}; {{s||Luke|12|12}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As explained above, LDS are depending on a witness of the Holy Spirit, not just “feelings” or what is in their heart and to do so is biblical ({{s||John|14:|26}}).

Mr McElveen's narrow view is correct that the Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip service to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admonition.

God, however, also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God is to be trusted. Certainly feelings and knowledge given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is always deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. While still living, Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. Latter-day Saints believe that this same promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information that has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings the ''feelings'' of peace and joy ({{scripture||Romans|14:|17}}. An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish. Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed. When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced or do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description that a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" and "burning of the bosom" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

A more 'neutral' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy, peace and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope viewers' feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffusion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the scriptures (i.e., the Old Testament since the NT wasn't written yet) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our '''''heart burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that can accompany the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen believes the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}) (emphasis added). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' that God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

Like the circular argument above, the Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet the critics, rightly, criticize this reasoning. Likewise, the Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for itself; we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself by a witness of the Spirit? The Book of Mormon asks us to pray to God to have its truthfulness revealed to us ({{s||Moroni|10|4}}).

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" that they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small> http://magazine.byu.edu/?act=view&a=1851

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T02:46:09Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that God will give the Holy Spirit to them that ask ({{s||Luke|11:|13}}). Moreover, one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge and truthfulness from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||John|14|26}}; {{s||Luke|2|25-6}}; {{s||Luke|12|12}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As explained above, LDS are depending on a witness of the Holy Spirit, not just “feelings” or what is in their heart and to do so is biblical ({{s||John|14:|26}}).

Mr McElveen's narrow view is correct that the Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip service to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admonition.

God, however, also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God is to be trusted. Certainly feelings and knowledge given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is always deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. While still living, Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. Latter-day Saints believe that this same promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information that has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings the ''feelings'' of peace and joy ({{scripture||Romans|14:|17}}. An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish. Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed. When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced or do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description that a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" and "burning of the bosom" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

A more 'neutral' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy, peace and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope viewers' feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffusion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the scriptures (i.e., the Old Testament since the NT wasn't written yet) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our '''''heart burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that can accompany the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen believes the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}) (emphasis added). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' that God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

Like the circular argument above, the Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet the critics, rightly, criticize this reasoning. Likewise, the Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for itself; we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself by a witness of the Spirit? The Book of Mormon asks us to pray to God to have its truthfulness revealed to us ({{s||Moroni|10|4}}).

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" that they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T02:45:39Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that God will give the Holy Spirit to them that ask ({{s||Luke|11:|13}}). Moreover, one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge and truthfulness from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||John|14:|26}}; {{s||Luke|2:|25-6}}; {{s||Luke|12:|12}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As explained above, LDS are depending on a witness of the Holy Spirit, not just “feelings” or what is in their heart and to do so is biblical ({{s||John|14:|26}}).

Mr McElveen's narrow view is correct that the Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip service to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admonition.

God, however, also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God is to be trusted. Certainly feelings and knowledge given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is always deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. While still living, Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. Latter-day Saints believe that this same promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information that has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings the ''feelings'' of peace and joy ({{scripture||Romans|14:|17}}. An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish. Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed. When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced or do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description that a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" and "burning of the bosom" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

A more 'neutral' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy, peace and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope viewers' feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffusion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the scriptures (i.e., the Old Testament since the NT wasn't written yet) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our '''''heart burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that can accompany the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen believes the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}) (emphasis added). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' that God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

Like the circular argument above, the Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet the critics, rightly, criticize this reasoning. Likewise, the Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for itself; we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself by a witness of the Spirit? The Book of Mormon asks us to pray to God to have its truthfulness revealed to us ({{s||Moroni|10|4}}).

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" that they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T01:54:09Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that God will give the Holy Spirit to them that ask ({{s||Luke|11:|13}}). Moreover, one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge and truthfulness from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||John|14:|26}}; {{s||Luke|2:|25-6}}; {{s||Luke|12:|12}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As explained above, LDS are depending on a witness of the Holy Spirit, not just “feelings” or what is in their heart and to do so is biblical ({{s||John|14:|26}}).

Mr McElveen's narrow view is correct that the Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip service to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admonition.

God, however, also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God is to be trusted. Certainly feelings and knowledge given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is always deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. While still living, Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. Latter-day Saints believe that this same promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information that has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings peace and joy ({{scripture||Romans|14:|17}}). {{nc}} An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish. Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed. When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced or do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description that a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" and "burning of the bosom" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

A more 'neutral' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy, peace and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope viewers' feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffusion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the scriptures (i.e., the Old Testament since the NT wasn't written yet) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our '''''heart burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that can accompany the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen believes the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}) (emphasis added). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' that God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

Like the circular argument above, the Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet the critics, rightly, criticize this reasoning. Likewise, the Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for itself; we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself by a witness of the Spirit? The Book of Mormon asks us to pray to God to have its truthfulness revealed to us ({{s||Moroni|10|4}}).

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" that they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T01:34:42Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that God will give the Holy Spirit to them that ask ({{s||Luke|11:|13}}). Moreover, one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge and truthfulness from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||John|14:|26}}; {{s||Luke|2:|25-6}}; {{s||Luke|12:|12}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As explained above, LDS are depending on a witness of the Holy Spirit, not just “feelings” or what is in their heart and to do so is biblical ({{s||John|14:|26}}).

Mr McElveen's narrow view is correct that the Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip service to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admonition.

God, however, also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God is to be trusted. Certainly feelings and knowledge given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is always deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. While still living, Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. Latter-day Saints believe that this same promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information that has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings peace and joy ({{scripture||Romans|14:|17}}). {{nc}} An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish. Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed. When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced or do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description that a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" and "burning of the bosom" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

A more 'neutral' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy, peace and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope viewers' feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffusion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the scriptures (i.e., the Old Testament since the NT wasn't written yet) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our '''''heart burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that can accompany the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen believes the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}) (emphasis added). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' that God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

The Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet, the critics would not have us believe them.

The Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for belief, because we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself by a witness of the Spirit?

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" that they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T01:33:29Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that God will give the Holy Spirit to them that ask ({{s||Luke|11:|13}}). Moreover, one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge and truthfulness from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||John|14:|26}}; {{s||Luke|2:|25-6}}; {{s||Luke|12:|12}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As explained above, LDS are depending on a witness of the Holy Spirit, not just “feelings” or what is in their heart and to do so is biblical ({{s||John|14:|26}}).

Mr McElveen's narrow view is correct that the Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip service to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admonition.

God, however, also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God is to be trusted. Certainly feelings and knowledge given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is always deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. While still living, Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. Latter-day Saints believe that this same promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information that has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings peace and joy ({{scripture||Romans|14:|17}}). {{nc}} An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish. Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed. When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced or do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description that a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" and "burning of the bosom" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

A more 'neutral' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy, peace and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope viewers' feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffusion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the scriptures (i.e., the Old Testament since the NT wasn't written yet) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our'''''heart burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that can accompany the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen believes the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every''word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}) (emphasis added). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' that God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

The Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet, the critics would not have us believe them.

The Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for belief, because we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself by a witness of the Spirit?

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" that they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T01:27:00Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that God will give the Holy Spirit to them that ask ({{s||Luke|11:|13}}). Moreover, one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge and truthfulness from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||John|14:|26}}; {{s||Luke|2:|25-6}}; {{s||Luke|12:|12}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As explained above, LDS are depending on a witness of the Holy Spirit, not just “feelings” or what is in their heart and to do so is biblical ({{s||John|14:|26}}).

Mr McElveen's narrow view is correct that the Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip service to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admonition.

God, however, also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God is to be trusted. Certainly feelings and knowledge given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is always deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. While still living, Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. Latter-day Saints believe that this same promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information that has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings peace and joy ({{scripture||Romans|14:|17}}). {{nc}} An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish. Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed. When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced or do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description that a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" and "burning of the bosom" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

A more 'neutral' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy, peace and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope viewers' feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffusion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the Bible (which isn't even written or collected now) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our heart '''''burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that accompanies the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen feels the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' that God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

The Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet, the critics would not have us believe them.

The Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for belief, because we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself?

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" that they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T01:14:59Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that God will give the Holy Spirit to them that ask ({{s||Luke|11:|13}}). Moreover, one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge and truthfulness from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||John|14:|26}}; {{s||Luke|2:|25-6}}; {{s||Luke|12:|12}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As explained above, LDS are depending on a witness of the Holy Spirit, not just “feelings” or what is in their heart and to do so is biblical ({{s||John|14:|26}}).

Mr McElveen's narrow view is correct that the Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip service to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admonition.

God, however, also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God is to be trusted. Certainly feelings and knowledge given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is always deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. While still living, Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. Latter-day Saints believe that this same promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information that has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings peace, joy, and calmness.({{scripture||Romans|14:|17}}){{nc}} (''scripture'') An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish. Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced, and so do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description that a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

A more 'neutral' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope their feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffusion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the Bible (which isn't even written or collected now) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our heart '''''burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that accompanies the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen feels the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' that God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

The Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet, the critics would not have us believe them.

The Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for belief, because we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself?

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" that they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T01:13:39Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that God will give the Holy Spirit to them that ask ({{s||Luke|11:|13}}). Moreover, one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge and truthfulness from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||John|14:|26}}; {{s||Luke|2:|25-6}}; {{s||Luke|12:|12}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As explained above, LDS are depending on a witness of the Holy Spirit, not just “feelings” or what is in their heart and to do so is biblical ({{s||John|14:|26}}).

Mr McElveen's narrow view is correct that the Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip service to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admonition.

God, however, also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God is to be trusted. Certainly feelings and knowledge given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is always deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. While still living, Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. Latter-day Saints believe that this same promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information that has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings peace, joy, and calmness.({{scripture||Romans|14:|17}}){{nc}} (''scripture'') An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish.

Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced, and so do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description that a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

A more 'neutral' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope their feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffusion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the Bible (which isn't even written or collected now) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our heart '''''burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that accompanies the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen feels the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' that God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

The Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet, the critics would not have us believe them.

The Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for belief, because we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself?

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" that they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T00:59:34Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that God will give the Holy Spirit to them that ask ({{s||Luke|11:|13}}). Moreover, one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge and truthfulness from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||John|14:|26}}; {{s||Luke|2:|25-6}}; {{s||Luke|12:|12}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

On the surface, Mr McElveen's myopic view is correct. The Bible does caution us about those who, in their pride, have turned away from God. The Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip service to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admonition.

But there is another side of the story the critics would not have you know. God also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God are to be trusted. Certainly feelings given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. This promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information that has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings peace, joy, and calmness.{{nc}} (''scripture'') An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish.

Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced, and so do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description that a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

A more 'neutral' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope their feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffusion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the Bible (which isn't even written or collected now) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our heart '''''burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that accompanies the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen feels the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' that God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

The Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet, the critics would not have us believe them.

The Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for belief, because we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself?

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" that they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T00:42:02Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||Luke|2:|25-6}}; {{s||Luke|12:|12}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

On the surface, Mr McElveen's myopic view is correct. The Bible does caution us about those who, in their pride, have turned away from God. The Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip service to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admonition.

But there is another side of the story the critics would not have you know. God also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God are to be trusted. Certainly feelings given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. This promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information which has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings peace, joy, and calmness.{{nc}} (''scripture'') An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish.

Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced, and so do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description which a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

A more 'neutral' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope their feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffusion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the Bible (which isn't even written or collected now) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our heart '''''burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that accompanies the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen feels the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' which God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

The Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet, the critics would not have us believe them.

The Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for belief, because we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself?

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" which they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T00:28:48Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see {{s||Luke|2:|25-6}}; {{s||Luke|12:|12}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

On the surface, Mr McElveen's myopic view is correct. The Bible does caution us about those who, in their pride, have turned away from God. The Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip serice to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admontion.

But there is another side of the story the critics would not have you know. God also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God are to be trusted. Certainly feelings given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. This promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information which has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings peace, joy, and calmness.{{nc}} (''scripture'') An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish.

Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced, and so do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description which a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

A more 'netural' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope their feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffussion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the Bible (which isn't even written or collected now) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our heart '''''burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that accompanies the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen feels the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' which God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

The Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet, the critics would not have us believe them.

The Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for belief, because we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself?

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" which they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T00:18:29Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see{{s||Luke|2:|25-6}}; {{s||Luke|12:|12}}).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

On the surface, Mr McElveen's myopic view is correct. The Bible does caution us about those who, in their pride, have turned away from God. The Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip serice to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admontion.

But there is another side of the story the critics would not have you know. God also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God are to be trusted. Certainly feelings given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. This promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information which has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings peace, joy, and calmness.{{nc}} (''scripture'') An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish.

Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced, and so do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description which a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

A more 'netural' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope their feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffussion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the Bible (which isn't even written or collected now) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our heart '''''burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that accompanies the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen feels the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' which God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

The Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet, the critics would not have us believe them.

The Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for belief, because we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself?

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" which they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T00:17:19Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9:8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see Luke 2:25-6; {{s||Luke|12:|12}}.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

On the surface, Mr McElveen's myopic view is correct. The Bible does caution us about those who, in their pride, have turned away from God. The Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip serice to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admontion.

But there is another side of the story the critics would not have you know. God also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God are to be trusted. Certainly feelings given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. This promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information which has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings peace, joy, and calmness.{{nc}} (''scripture'') An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish.

Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced, and so do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description which a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

A more 'netural' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope their feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffussion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the Bible (which isn't even written or collected now) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our heart '''''burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that accompanies the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen feels the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' which God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

The Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet, the critics would not have us believe them.

The Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for belief, because we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself?

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" which they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T00:05:23Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom,” using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9: 8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see Luke 2:25-6; Luke 12:12).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

On the surface, Mr McElveen's myopic view is correct. The Bible does caution us about those who, in their pride, have turned away from God. The Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip serice to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admontion.

But there is another side of the story the critics would not have you know. God also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God are to be trusted. Certainly feelings given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. This promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information which has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings peace, joy, and calmness.{{nc}} (''scripture'') An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish.

Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced, and so do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description which a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

A more 'netural' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope their feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffussion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the Bible (which isn't even written or collected now) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our heart '''''burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that accompanies the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen feels the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' which God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

The Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet, the critics would not have us believe them.

The Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for belief, because we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself?

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" which they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-23T00:00:35Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Members of the Church believe that one is entitled to and should receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom”, using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9: 8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see Luke 2:25-6; Luke 12:12).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

On the surface, Mr McElveen's myopic view is correct. The Bible does caution us about those who, in their pride, have turned away from God. The Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip serice to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admontion.

But there is another side of the story the critics would not have you know. God also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God are to be trusted. Certainly feelings given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. This promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information which has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings peace, joy, and calmness.{{nc}} (''scripture'') An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish.

Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced, and so do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description which a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

A more 'netural' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope their feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffussion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the Bible (which isn't even written or collected now) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our heart '''''burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that accompanies the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen feels the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' which God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

The Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet, the critics would not have us believe them.

The Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for belief, because we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself?

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" which they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-22T23:48:34Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Mormons believe that one should and are entitled to receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom”, using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9: 8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see Luke 2:25-6; Luke 12:12).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

On the surface, Mr McElveen's myopic view is correct. The Bible does caution us about those who, in their pride, have turned away from God. The Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip serice to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admontion.

But there is another side of the story the critics would not have you know. God also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God are to be trusted. Certainly feelings given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. This promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information which has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings peace, joy, and calmness.{{nc}} (''scripture'') An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish.

Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced, and so do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description which a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

A more 'netural' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope their feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffussion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the Bible (which isn't even written or collected now) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our heart '''''burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that accompanies the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen feels the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' which God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

The Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet, the critics would not have us believe them.

The Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for belief, because we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself?

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" which they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Burning in the Bosom

2007-03-22T23:41:38Z

JanAnderson:

{{DVDHeadingBox|Special Features: Burning in the Bosom}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "One of the things our Mormon friends tell us...is that the reason they're sure about Mormonism is [be]cause when they prayed about the Book of Mormon; when they prayed about the truth of Mormonism; they had a burning in the bosom. Well, many of us have prayed; I've prayed, and I have tremendous joy in knowing Jesus." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints are not surprised that other Christians find tremendous joy in prayer and experiencing a personal relationship with Christ. Latter-day Saints also enjoy this same feeling.

Mormons believe that one should and are entitled to receive a spiritual witness from God the Holy Ghost about the truthfulness of the scriptures (including the Bible and the Book of Mormon) before they accept them as true. This is frequently referred to by some as “a burning in the bosom”, using the phrase from LDS scriptures (D&C 9: 8). Receiving a spiritual witness of knowledge from the Holy Ghost is biblically sound (see Luke 2:25-6; Luke 12:12; ).

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Many of us have that exhilaration, but we don't depend on that. If we did, we might easily be led astray, and here's why: Jeremiah 17:9 says: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9) The heart of man is wicked. Our feelings betray us all the time. That's why there are so many cults and so many [inaudible] and differences in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

On the surface, Mr McElveen's myopic view is correct. The Bible does caution us about those who, in their pride, have turned away from God. The Bible is replete with warnings to those whose hardened hearts are uncircumscribed, blind, vain, foolish, lustful, or lifted up in pride. It also cautions against those who only pay lip serice to God, while their hearts are far from Him. All members of the Church are mindful of God's admontion.

But there is another side of the story the critics would not have you know. God also speaks in His Word about hearts that are humble, honest, true, who have an eye single towards His glory. How can a deceitful heart "...believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation?" ({{s||Romans|10:|10}}) Only Jesus knows what is in the heart of each of us. Only Jesus has the right to make that judgement. Certainly a heart that is pure before God are to be trusted. Certainly feelings given by God are to be trusted.

If every heart is deceitful as Mr. McElveen would have us accept, why would the Lord promise that those He has blessed with a pure heart will see Him? ({{scripture||Matthew|5:|8}}) When the Master spoke those words, He did not confine that glorious experience only to those who have accepted Him as their Savior ''and'' have passed from this life. He simply promised that those who are blessed with a pure heart will see God. Stephen saw the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God as he was being stoned to death ({{scripture||Acts|7:|55}}). Are we to believe Stephen's heart or feelings were deceitful? Whoever the Lord chooses to bless with His presence may see Him. This promise was made manifest once more early in the spring of 1820, when Joseph Smith walked into a small grove of trees near his home in Palymra, New York.

McElveen's statement also indicates a lack of familiarity with how members of the LDS Church understand revelatory experiences. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we cannot trust our hearts or our feelings. God has given us additional revelation, to ensure that there is no confusion.

:Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
:Did I not speak peace ''to your mind'' concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/6/22#23 D&C 6:22–23]). {{ea}}

Notice the information spoken to the “mind,” and the peace then follows. And, the solution for later doubts or concerns is not reliance on “a feeling,” but an admonition to recall specific information communicated earlier. A witness of the Spirit confirms information which has been previously learned through other means.

This matches a later scriptural description:

:Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.
:But, behold, I say unto you, that you must ''study it out in your mind''; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
:But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a ''stupor of thought'' that shall cause you to ''forget'' the thing which is wrong... ([http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/9/7#9 D&C 9:7–9]). {{ea}}

Again, heart and mind are in unity, or there is no revelation. Things must be clear, logical, and reasonable to us, not just "feel good."

The Holy Ghost brings peace, joy, and calmness.{{nc}} (''scripture'') An absence of the Holy Ghost brings mental and emotional turmoil and confusion. When a Latter-day Saint has experienced the former, the turmoil, aggression, and hate that pervades anti-Mormon materials (such as this DVD) are easy to distinguish.

Small wonder that many choose to avoid them—not because they fear them, but because such experiences are unpleasant and distasteful.

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "...Our feelings betray us all the time...So God is saying 'do not depend on your feelings.'" - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

One must be careful in how one uses the word "feelings." To be sure, many members will talk about how they "felt" when they prayed.

The problem is that there is no good expression for exactly describing the experience of the Holy Ghost to someone else who has not had it. Words like "feel" are used as a convenient verbal "shorthand," which works fine among fellow Saints.

When critics begin to attack or mock that which they have never experienced, and so do not understand, they risk fundamentally misunderstanding what the Latter-day Saints mean. There is no description which a hostile listener could not misinterpret if they chose.

A more 'netural' expression that could avoid misunderstanding "feeling" or "emotion" might be "experiencing the Spirit." This experience often has nothing to do with emotion (though it may be followed by emotions of joy and gratitude). Elijah described the Holy Ghost clearly:

:...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
:And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire ''a still small voice''.
: And it was so, ''when Elijah heard it'', that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. ({{s|1|Kings|19|11-13}}) {{ea}}

Thus, the Holy Ghost may speak words and concepts to the mind—it is not merely "an emotional experience." To outside observers, emotion may be the only visible sign of such an experience—the voice will not be perceived by others, but this makes it no less real.

Interestingly, the [[Search for the Truth DVD|introductory]] text to the DVD says:

:''We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus.''

The present section of the DVD spends much effort trying to convince the Latter-day Saints not to trust their feelings. Why, then, do the video's producers hope their feelings are touched? Could it be that they realize that the Holy Ghost ''does'' work (in part) through the sentiments of the heart?

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "[God tells us not to trust] a burning in the bosom, not an exhilaration, not a suffussion of joy. " - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is very strange to hear a Bible-believing Christian claim that a "burning in the bosom" is of no importance, since it is taught in the Bible.

Following Jesus' resurrection, He walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. They did not recognize Jesus, but listened to Him as "he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" ({{s||Luke|24|27}}).

After breaking bread with them, Jesus was revealed to the disciples, and vanished.

Interestingly, the disciples did not say to each other such things as:

* "We should have known it was Jesus because of His scriptural teaching."
* "We should have known it was Jesus because the Bible (which isn't even written or collected now) tells us that He would walk with two disciples on the road to Emmaus."

Rather, they said:

:Did not our heart '''''burn within us''''', while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? ({{s||Luke|24|32}}, emphasis added)

The experience on the road to Emmaus illustrates again that a witness of the Holy Ghost is not "just a feeling." The Holy Ghost is both a "feeling" or "experiencing" process, but it is not empty emotion. Rather, ''information'' is always transmitted with it. Thus, Jesus did not just give the disciples a "feeling," but taught them information from the scriptures which gave intellectual or mental insight and satisfaction.

The mental conclusions they drew from that information were simultaneously confirmed by the inward "burning" that accompanies the Holy Spirit.

Would the critics likewise dismiss Jesus' disciples' witness because it was a "burning in the bosom?" Would they characterize this experience as merely the emotional?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Depend on the Word of God, period." - Floyd McElveen </h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This claim demonstrates how circular the critics' arguments are. One assumes that Mr. McElveen feels the Bible is the only "Word of God."

Where does God tell us to depend only "on the Word of God, period," or only and entirely on the Bible? Nowhere.

Jesus tells us ''in the Bible'' that we should live by "''every'' word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" ({{s||Matthew|4|4}}). This statement was made prior to the Bible being compiled; none of the New Testament had been written. So, Jesus clearly taught that ''everything'' which God said (both prior to His statement, and ''after'' His statement) be depended upon.

Even if we presume that the Bible is the only Word of God, how do we know to trust the Bible? It is circular to believe the Bible simply because the Bible tells us to:

:Believer - The Bible is the word of God!
:Unbeliever - How do you know?
:Believer - Because it says so, right in the Bible!
:Unbeliever - ???

The Qu'ran tells us to believe the Qu'ran; the Book of Mormon tells us to believe the Book of Mormon. Yet, the critics would not have us believe them.

The Bible cannot be the ultimate source of authority for belief, because we need ''something outside the Bible'' to confirm the Bible's authority. Who can confirm God's Word, save God Himself?

Mr. McElveen seems to understand this problem, on some level, and changes his story slightly in the next item.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Then, you may have wonderful feelings. For instance, the Bible says, "in thy presence is a fulness of joy. At thy right hand are pleasures for evermore." And I love my relationship with Jesus; it's wonderful. Besides that, I know I'm going to heaven. But anything short of that, feelings only decimate." - Floyd McElveen</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

So, Mr. McElveen trusts feelings insofar as they confirm what he wants us to believe—that the Bible is God's Word, that Jesus saves, and that the believer is destined for heaven.

This is exactly what the Latter-day Saints claim—after learning and implementing true principles (e.g. accepting Jesus as the Son of God) one will be filled with joy. This is the action of the Holy Ghost.

Mr. McElveen just doesn't believe that such an experience can extend beyond the Bible.

But, at least he realizes that the Bible needs ''something'' to confirm its status as the Word of God. This fatally undercuts the doctrine of "don't believe anything except what you read in the Bible."

However, the critics continue to have a big problem with circular reasoning.

'''To read more:'''
* J. Cooper Johnson, "Can We Trust Our Feelings?" {{fairlink|url=http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Can_We_Trust_Our_Feelings.html}}
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "I don't believe what I believe because it makes me happy or because it makes me feel good. I believe what I believe because the Bible says that that's true, and I believe in the authority of the Bible." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

This is simply more circular reasoning: "I believe the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true." The Book of Mormon also claims to be true (e.g., {{s||Moroni|7|35}}; {{s||Moroni|10|29}}), but yet critics reject the Book of Mormon. This type of reasoning is unsound.

The bottom line is that basing one's beliefs on the Bible is an admirable and wise way to make decisions about one's faith. LDS believe that God's word is always a good source to use when making such decisions . The major difference, of course, is that the LDS believe God's word encompasses more than just the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is God's word. We believe that the Doctrine and Covenants is God's word. We believe that the Pearl of Great Price is God’s word. We believe that we can receive God's word through modern-day prophets. We believe that we can receive God’s word for us through personal revelations from the Holy Ghost. In short, we believe that the heavens are still open, and that God continues to talk to His children today, the same as he did in biblical times.

Despite the assertion to the contrary, LDS do not make decisions concerning God's word or their eternal condition based solely on "what makes them happy" or "what makes them feel good." However, surely a confirmation of faith from the Holy Ghost would "make one happy" or "make one feel good," but that "feeling" comes only after much study of God's word and prayer.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Logical_fallacies#Begging_the_question|Circular reasoning / begging the question]] (FAIR Wiki)
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question Circular reasoning / begging the question] {Wikipedia)
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|Open versus closed canon?]]

|-
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When Paul preached the gospel, he opened the scriptures, Acts 17:2, 3, or you can go to Acts 9, and it says Paul proved from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ. You can go to Acts 18:28, Apollos, it says he mightily convinced the Jews, publicly proving from the scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Latter-day Saints agree that preaching from and study of the scriptures is an important way to prepare ourselves to experience the Holy Ghost's witness of truth.

However, Mr. Hunt ignores the many times in the Book of Acts when the Holy Ghost bore witness, instructed, or directed members in ways that were not in scripture (the New Testament writings did not even exist at this point).

; {{s||Acts|13|2}}
:''As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.''
There was no Bible or writing to tell the apostles that Barnabas and Saul should be called as missionaries. Should the apostles have ignored this because "it's not in the Bible"?

;{{s||Acts|15|28}}
:''For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...''
When the apostles were confronted with the issue of circumcision for Christian converts, they actually ''violated'' Jewish scriptural commands regarding circumcision. If they had relied only on the "Word of God" which they had received up to that point, they would have erred. But, they continued to listen to the ''on-going'' Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Following reasoned discussion of the issues (mind) their hearts were also in unity and peace about the correct action.

Many more examples are available [[Search for the Truth DVD:Burning in the Bosom:Holy Ghost in Acts|here]].

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "OK, so I'm not just to go by emotion or some burning in the bosom, although I certainly have a convicting power of the Holy Spirit because the Bible speaks to my heart; it's true..." - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Again, the critics want to have their cake and eat it too. On some level, they seem to realize that the Bible ''must'' have something to verify the Bible's authority. So, they claim that the Holy Ghost has used convincing power with regards to the Bible.

Members of the Church bear witness that the same convincing power is present when they read the Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon. They find no conflict between the teachings found in both. So, why should they not accept both?

Critics simply fall back on the non-Biblical claim that the Bible is all sufficient.

'''To read more:'''
* [[Biblical_completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "But the Mormon says 'well, in spite of all the evidence, DNA evidence,' and the fact that they can't document anything—that there's no historical evidence, and so forth—it reads like a lot of nonsense in many places. They say 'yeah, but I have a burning in the bosom. Now, if you will just read it, and you'll get a burning in the bosom, and that will prove to you that it is true.'" - Dave Hunt</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Mr. Hunt is, unfortunately, bearing false witness. Mormons do not say "well, in spite of all the evidence..." They do not believe ''in spite'' of evidence—they are convinced by the evidence which supports the Book of Mormon's claim to be scripture.

Non-LDS Christians make the same sort of decisions all the time—any atheist can provide Christians with "evidence" for the non-existence of God. Christians reply—quite rightly—that the atheist's evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the evidence which the Christian has for God's existence.

Evaluating evidence involves ''choice.'' God will not force us to believe:

:The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true, and to have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing them to be true. I am convinced that there must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice—and, therefore, the more deliberate and laden with personal vulnerability and investment. The option to believe must appear on our personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. One is, it would seem, always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.
::<small>—{{BYUS|author=Terryl L. Givens|article='Lightning Out of Heaven': Joseph Smith and the Forging of Community|date=2006|start=5|end=21|vol=45|num=1}}{{nl}}</small>

Those who choose to exercise faith will find evidences which they cannot deny.

Latter-day Saints do not tell people simply to read and get a "burning in the bosom." They invite all to read the Book of Mormon, compare its teachings with those in the Bible, and exercise faith by ''living the principles which it teaches.'' Those who are not willing to do this will not receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness.

It is clear that the critics shown in this DVD have not even compared the Book of Mormon to the Bible. Time and again, they try to "teach" Latter-day Saints what the Bible teaches, completely ignoring identical teachings in the Book of Mormon. Many examples of this are available [[Search_for_the_Truth_DVD:Eternal_Life|here]].

'''To read more:'''
* {{Ensign1|author=Gene R. Cook|article=Moroni's Promise|date=April 1994|start=12}}{{link|url=http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1994.htm/ensign%20april%201994.htm/moronis%20promise.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0}}

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "When I had doubts and I prayed, I did receive confirmation that it was true. But now, looking back, I see that it was my self-will. I wanted it to be true so badly, because all the reasons why I saw Mormonism as a hope, as a goal, was to do work for my dead family." - Rauni Higley</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

Since self-deception is possible, this is one reason why LDS revelation requires "two or more witnesses"—the mind ''and'' heart.

The critics ignore, of course, that one can be just as guilty of self-deception in reading a scriptural text. By relying only on their own understanding of the text—and insisting that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, or even unChristian—the critics demonstrate how self-deception can affect anyone, and be self-reinforcing.

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "Our relationship with God has to be built upon truth, not upon experience, not upon a sensation that could come from the Kingdom of Darkness. You think it's hard for the Kingdom of Darkness, who obviously has great power... "You want a burning in your bosom, sure, that's no problem; we'll give you a burning in the bosom." That's gonna get you launched down this way that you're gonna believe all this stuff, we can... you know, the Kingdom of Darkness can easily provide that." - Joel Kramer</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

It is fantastic that Mr. Kramer argues that a relationship with God cannot be built upon "experience." What is a relationship if not an experience with another being? When one is "born again," is that not an experience?

Mr. Kramer believes that Satan can provide experiences which will be mistaken for the Holy Ghost. The apostle Paul and the Bible argue differently:

:But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
:Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. ({{s||Galatians|5|22-23}})

The Spirit brings certain fruits, and Jesus promises that "by their fruits, ye shall know them" ({{s||Matthew|7|22}}). Why would Paul describe certain fruits of the spirit if these were not a reliable method to "know" the Spirit? Would the critics have us believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Paul's fruits contain elements of both mind ''and'' heart:
* love, joy, peace: these are "feelings," but obviously more than mere 'emotions'
* longsuffering, temperance, gentleness, faith: these are mental attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors

|-

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Claim: "The reason why we can't trust our emotions when it comes to knowing truth is because the scripture's very clear that the heart of man is evil from conception. So rather than calling upon an emotional experience to determine truth, I think we should take God at His word." - Brian Mackert</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|

As described earlier, the Latter-day Saints are not talking about "emotional experiences." But, taking God at His word is always a good idea. What does the Bible tell us? What did Christ say?

:And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever....
:But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ({{s||John|14|16,26}})

So, we are to heed the Holy Ghost, not ignore Him. The Holy Ghost is the "Comforter"—are we to dismiss His witness because "comfort" might be thought of by some as an "emotion" or even "an emotional experience?"

Note that Jesus emphasizes that the Comforter (in what might be termed an "emotional role") accomplishes His purporse by ''mental'' or ''intellectual'' means: He teaches and brings things to remembrance. It is this that provides the comfort; it is not mere emotion, but mental light and information which ''result'' in joy, peace, and comfort.

Instead, it would seem, the video's producers want you to believe that God would give us a stone when we ask for bread, despite Jesus' command and promise:

:Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
:For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
:Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
:Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? ({{s||Matthew|7|7-10}})

The Bible further commands us:

:If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. ({{s||James|1|5}})

Are we to believe then that God will not answer when we knock at the door? That he who asketh will not receive? Latter-day Saints believe in these Biblical admonitions to seek God, to commune with the Spirit, and to trust in Him.

When describing the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith which was most dangerous to the devil, Parley P. Pratt wrote that it was that

:[y]ou have again revived the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation.
::<small>—Parley P. Pratt, ''New York Herald'' (25 August 1844): 1.</small>
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}

{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}

Criticism of Mormonism/Video/Search for the Truth DVD/Intro

2007-03-22T21:13:12Z

JanAnderson: changed "the Church" to "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

{{DVDHeadingBox|Introduction}}

{| style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
| class="MainPageBG" style="width:85%;border:1px solid #cedff2;background-color:#f5faff;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5faff"

! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Do Mormons Equate Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Patrick Powell, one of the video's hosts, proclaims at the very beginning that "Today we're going to investigate two of the world's most prominent and influential men to determine once and for all which one holds the truth."

There are several immediate problems with such a statement, and these problems form a sandy foundation on which to build everything else presented in the video.

First, Patrick sets up a false dichotomy—he proposes to compare Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ. Mormons never equate Joseph Smith with Jesus Christ, despite what this video asserts. Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the divine Son of God, the only perfect and sinless person to ever be born on earth. Mormons believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, subject to the same [[Personal_failings_of_Joseph_Smith|imperfections]] as other men; he did not live a sinless life. Indeed, in the LDS view it would be more accurate to compare Joseph Smith with Peter, with Abraham, with Moses, or with any of the other biblical prophets. It would appear that the video's producers don't want to draw this correct comparison, but would rather set up a false dichotomy—an improper, fallacious comparison—to mislead the viewer.

Second, the statement creates a false sense of competition between Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith and presupposes that there are disparities in their teachings such that if one is right, the other is wrong. Certainly this is part and parcel of the type of message the film is trying to create, but it is not accurate. Joseph Smith was a witness for the divinity of Jesus Christ, bearing strong testimony for the efficacy of Christ's atoning sacrifice, and the reality of Christ's resurrection. Such a witness would be expected, of course, from a prophet of God.

Third, the video states that "men" are being compared. It seems disingenuous for Patrick to state that Jesus Christ was a man while a later commentator in the video states that He was not a man. According to Dr. Phil Roberts, president of the Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, "[Jesus] was God in the flesh. He was eternal with God, co-equal, uncreated." This is obviously not a man, as Patrick asserts. It is surely false to assert that Mormons would accept the idea that Jesus Christ was a man to be compared directly with other men.

Is Patrick unsure of what Christian theology is concerning Christ when he states that Jesus is one "of the world's most prominent and influential men," or is he purposefully misstating his beliefs to make the false comparison between a prophet and the Son of God even more compelling?

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Are "Christianity" and "Mormonism" compatible?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
The video next begs a different question—it assumes the answer it wishes its viewers to draw. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints insist that they are devout Christians, who worship Jesus Christ as the Only Begotten Son of God, and the only way to salvation. Asking if "Christianity" and "Mormonism" are compatible is like asking if one can be from Utah or Texas and also be an American.

'''To read more:'''
*[[Latter-day_Saints_aren't_Christians|Are LDS Christians?]]
*[[Latter-day_Saints_aren't_Christians#Saints_claim_to_be_Christian_only_recently.3F|Have the LDS only recently claimed to be Christian?]]
*[[Worship different Jesus|Do the LDS 'worship a different Jesus'?]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Are there "significant differences" between "Christianity" and "Mormonism"?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
Once again, the video makes a false distinction. Are there differences between LDS Christians and some other Christian denominations? Of course! There are differences between every Christian denomination: otherwise, there would be only one church. The video's producers wish to force those who do not share their views on some issues completely out of the category of "Christian." This is self-serving, and does not help in a search for truth. (A [[DVD-25March2007:letter|letter]] to distributors of the DVD characterizes the LDS Church as a "powerful cult," which demonstrates their attitude toward the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.)

'''To read more:'''
* [[LDS_Church_is_a_cult|Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a "cult"?]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#cedff2;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #a3b0bf;text-align:left;color:#000;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">What about the Holy Bible?</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"|
The video contrasts "Joseph Smith's teachings" in the Book of Mormon, and then mentions "Jesus' teachings" in the Holy Bible. This creates the false impression that Latter-day Saints do not believe the Bible. The LDS consider both the Holy Bible ''and'' the Book of Mormon to be holy scripture which contains the teachings of Christ and testify of His divinity. The producers wish to make the "Mormons" appear different from Christianity and to deny that Mormons can be called Christians.

Said Elder Neal A. Maxwell, a modern apostle of Jesus Christ:

:''So when we read and turn the pages of the precious New Testament, there is a barely audible rustling like the quiet stirrings of the Spirit, something to be "spiritually discerned." ({{s|1|Corinthians|2|14}}.) The witnessing words came to us—not slowly, laboriously, or equivocally through the corridors of the centuries, but rather, swiftly, deftly, and clearly. Upon the wings of the Spirit these words proclaim, again and anew, "JESUS LIVED. JESUS LIVES!"''<br>
::<small>—{{Ensign1|author=Neal Maxwell|article=The New Testament—A Matchless Portrait of the Savior|date=December 1986|start=20}}, italics in original. {{link|url=http://beta.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg/menuitem.b12f9d18fae655bb69095bd3e44916a0/?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=26fb67700817b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1}}</small>

'''To read more:'''
* [[Bible basics]]
* [[Biblical_inerrancy|Biblical inerrancy?]]
* [[Biblical completeness|Biblical sufficiency?]]
* [[Lost_scripture|Lost scripture?]]
* [[Open_canon_vs._closed_canon|A closed canon?]]
* {{tg|url=http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai099.html|topic=LDS view of the Holy Bible}}
|-
|}



| class="MainPageBG" style="width:40%;border:1px solid #cef2e0;background-color:#f5fffa;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#f5fffa"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#003366;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #258;text-align:left;color:#fff;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">Jump to...</h2>
|-
| style="color:#000"| <small>{{DVD25March2007-ToC}}</small>
|-
|}
|}


{{DoYouHaveQuestions}}