Priesthood authority in the Book of Mormon - Revision history

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	[[es:Pregunta: ¿De dónde obtuvo Alma el Anciano la autoridad legítima del sacerdocio para bautizar en las aguas de Mormón?]]		[[es:Pregunta: ¿De dónde obtuvo Alma el Anciano la autoridad legítima del sacerdocio para bautizar en las aguas de Mormón?]]

	~~==References==~~
	~~{{Reflist}}~~

	[[Category:Difficult Questions for Mormons]]		[[Category:Difficult Questions for Mormons]]

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	The case of Alma brings up at least two interesting questions: (1) Were the priests of Noah legitimate holders of legitimate priesthood, and (2) Where did Alma get his authority? We have to assume Alma and his one-time colleagues were ordained validly by Noah ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|11\|5}}), who was also ordained validly by his father, Zeniff. The fact that Noah was not righteous after he was ordained and that Alma himself was part of Noah’s priestly group during his early ministry has nothing to do with Alma’s priesthood authority. Until superior priesthood authority withdraws permission to exercise priestly functions, a legitimately ordained holder of the priesthood continues to hold valid priesthood—however unrighteous he may be, however dead to spiritual promptings, and however unlikely it may be that he will ever actually exercise his priesthood.<ref>Peterson inserts a footnote here, writing: The ancient Christian church faced this problem in the form of the Donatist schism, which was finally declared heretical in AD 405. The Donatists held that unrighteousness in a bishop or priest invalidated any and all ordinances that he might have performed. However, the Synod of Aries determined in AD 314. that the validity of baptisms and ordinations and the like did not depend upon the worthiness or merit of the officiator. (On the Donatists, and the related Novatianist and Meletian movements, see Christie-Murray 96–97.) Granted, the Christian church at this period was essentially apostate, but Latter-day Saints take basically the same position, and for good reason. If serious sin, as such, invalidated priesthood ordinances, we could never know whose marriage was legal, or who was really a member of the Church. Did the man who ordained you to the priesthood have a secret, unrepented sin? If he did, your ordination is invalid. Your mission was illegitimate, any converts you baptized are actually non-members, and you are living in adultery since you should never have been admitted to the temple. Any of your converts who served missions and baptized are similarly fraudulent, and the consequences ripple onward and outward in utterly unforeseeable ways. How could we ever be sure of anything?"</ref>		The case of Alma brings up at least two interesting questions: (1) Were the priests of Noah legitimate holders of legitimate priesthood, and (2) Where did Alma get his authority? We have to assume Alma and his one-time colleagues were ordained validly by Noah ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|11\|5}}), who was also ordained validly by his father, Zeniff. The fact that Noah was not righteous after he was ordained and that Alma himself was part of Noah’s priestly group during his early ministry has nothing to do with Alma’s priesthood authority. Until superior priesthood authority withdraws permission to exercise priestly functions, a legitimately ordained holder of the priesthood continues to hold valid priesthood—however unrighteous he may be, however dead to spiritual promptings, and however unlikely it may be that he will ever actually exercise his priesthood.<ref>Peterson inserts a footnote here, writing: The ancient Christian church faced this problem in the form of the Donatist schism, which was finally declared heretical in AD 405. The Donatists held that unrighteousness in a bishop or priest invalidated any and all ordinances that he might have performed. However, the Synod of Aries determined in AD 314. that the validity of baptisms and ordinations and the like did not depend upon the worthiness or merit of the officiator. (On the Donatists, and the related Novatianist and Meletian movements, see Christie-Murray 96–97.) Granted, the Christian church at this period was essentially apostate, but Latter-day Saints take basically the same position, and for good reason. If serious sin, as such, invalidated priesthood ordinances, we could never know whose marriage was legal, or who was really a member of the Church. Did the man who ordained you to the priesthood have a secret, unrepented sin? If he did, your ordination is invalid. Your mission was illegitimate, any converts you baptized are actually non-members, and you are living in adultery since you should never have been admitted to the temple. Any of your converts who served missions and baptized are similarly fraudulent, and the consequences ripple onward and outward in utterly unforeseeable ways. How could we ever be sure of anything?"</ref>

	Alma, in fact, claimed to have authority from God ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|18\|13}}), a claim which Mormon implicitly acknowledges as valid ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|18\|18}}). Alma was a descendant of Nephi ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|17\|2}}), a fact which may or may not be significant in discussing his priesthood authority since we do not know precisely how the priesthood functioned or was apportioned among the Nephites. Certainly most, if not in fact all, of the priests and kings of whom we know anything in the Book of Mormon up to this point were of the lineage of Nephi. Furthermore, in the power vacuum left by the absence of king Noah, the people implored Alma to assume the royal title and prerogatives ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|23\|6}}). He turned down the title, but out of necessity, he did carry out some kingly duties. Alma ordained priests and teachers for his outcast people, among whom he was in fact the sole human source of authority ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|18\|18}}; {{sv\|\|Mosiah\|23\|17}}).<ref>{{Book:Nyman Tate:Mosiah Salvation Only Through Christ\|author=Daniel C. Peterson\|article=[http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-mosiah-salvation-only-through-christ/11-priesthood-mosiah Priesthood in Mosiah]\|pages=187–210}} </ref></blockquote>		Alma, in fact, claimed to have authority from God ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|18\|13}}), a claim which Mormon implicitly acknowledges as valid ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|18\|18}}). Alma was a descendant of Nephi ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|17\|2}}), a fact which may or may not be significant in discussing his priesthood authority since we do not know precisely how the priesthood functioned or was apportioned among the Nephites. Certainly most, if not in fact all, of the priests and kings of whom we know anything in the Book of Mormon up to this point were of the lineage of Nephi. Furthermore, in the power vacuum left by the absence of king Noah, the people implored Alma to assume the royal title and prerogatives ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|23\|6}}). He turned down the title, but out of necessity, he did carry out some kingly duties. Alma ordained priests and teachers for his outcast people, among whom he was in fact the sole human source of authority ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|18\|18}}; {{sv\|\|Mosiah\|23\|17}}).<ref>{{Book:Nyman Tate:Mosiah Salvation Only Through Christ\|author=Daniel C. Peterson\|article=[http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-mosiah-salvation-only-through-christ/11-priesthood-mosiah Priesthood in Mosiah]\|pages=187–210}}</ref></blockquote>

	We may begin to deal with one related but tangential question here: How is it that Alma retained his right to the priesthood if he was wicked? Doctrine and Covenants 121:35–37 states:		We may begin to deal with one related but tangential question here: How is it that Alma retained his right to the priesthood if he was wicked? Doctrine and Covenants 121:35–37 states:
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	[[es:Pregunta: ¿De dónde obtuvo Alma el Anciano la autoridad legítima del sacerdocio para bautizar en las aguas de Mormón?]]		[[es:Pregunta: ¿De dónde obtuvo Alma el Anciano la autoridad legítima del sacerdocio para bautizar en las aguas de Mormón?]]

			==References==
			{{Reflist}}

	[[Category:Difficult Questions for Mormons]]		[[Category:Difficult Questions for Mormons]]

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	==Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon?==		==Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon?==
	===There were none of the tribe of Levi among them, therefore it was by virtue of the Melchizedek Priesthood that they officiated===		===There were none of the tribe of Levi among them, therefore it was by virtue of the Melchizedek Priesthood that they officiated===
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	This scriptures states that the power of the priesthood is withdrawn if the priesthood is used for unrighteous ends. How did Alma retain his priesthood? How did Noah validly ordain Alma? With regard to Noah we must, as Peterson states, assume that Noah at one time was validly ordained and that he subsequently validly ordained Alma. Notice the first sentence of verse 37: "That they may be conferred upon us, it is true;" Perhaps we can assume that the ''rights'' to receive the power of the priesthood can be conferred upon anyone at anytime. But the ''actual power'' and ''efficacy'' of the priesthood cannot be manifested unless we are righteous enough (in desires and/or works) to have that power manifested. Thus, for Alma to have the priesthood, the answer may lie in the fact that Alma repented of his sins. He followed Abinadi's exhortations and sought to follow God. God must have forgiven him of his sins as he repented so that he could organize the church and baptize people into it with true priesthood power.		This scriptures states that the power of the priesthood is withdrawn if the priesthood is used for unrighteous ends. How did Alma retain his priesthood? How did Noah validly ordain Alma? With regard to Noah we must, as Peterson states, assume that Noah at one time was validly ordained and that he subsequently validly ordained Alma. Notice the first sentence of verse 37: "That they may be conferred upon us, it is true;" Perhaps we can assume that the ''rights'' to receive the power of the priesthood can be conferred upon anyone at anytime. But the ''actual power'' and ''efficacy'' of the priesthood cannot be manifested unless we are righteous enough (in desires and/or works) to have that power manifested. Thus, for Alma to have the priesthood, the answer may lie in the fact that Alma repented of his sins. He followed Abinadi's exhortations and sought to follow God. God must have forgiven him of his sins as he repented so that he could organize the church and baptize people into it with true priesthood power.
	~~</onlyinclude>~~
	{{endnotes sources}}		{{endnotes sources}}

DavidSmith: DavidSmith moved page Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon? to Priesthood authority in the Book of Mormon: part of content consolidation and simplification project

2023-03-12T23:33:06Z

DavidSmith moved page Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon? to Priesthood authority in the Book of Mormon: part of content consolidation and simplification project

← Older revision	Revision as of 23:33, 12 March 2023
(No difference)

SpencerMarsh: /* Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon? */

2021-03-29T20:17:26Z

Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon?

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	37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.</blockquote>		37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.</blockquote>

	This scriptures states that the power of the priesthood is withdrawn if the priesthood is used for unrighteous ends. How did Alma retain his priesthood? How did Noah validly ordain Alma? With regard to Noah we must, as Peterson states, assume that Noah at one time was validly ordained and ~~worthily held~~ the priesthood so that ~~he could ordain Alma~~. ~~For~~ Alma, the answer may lie in the fact that Alma repented of his sins. He followed Abinadi's exhortations and sought to follow God. God must have forgiven him of his sins as he repented so that he could organize the church and baptize people into it.		This scriptures states that the power of the priesthood is withdrawn if the priesthood is used for unrighteous ends. How did Alma retain his priesthood? How did Noah validly ordain Alma? With regard to Noah we must, as Peterson states, assume that Noah at one time was validly ordained and that he subsequently validly ordained Alma. Notice the first sentence of verse 37: "That they may be conferred upon us, it is true;" Perhaps we can assume that the ''rights'' to receive the power of the priesthood can be conferred upon anyone at anytime. But the ''actual power'' and ''efficacy'' of the priesthood cannot be manifested unless we are righteous enough (in desires and/or works) to have that power manifested. Thus, for Alma to have the priesthood, the answer may lie in the fact that Alma repented of his sins. He followed Abinadi's exhortations and sought to follow God. God must have forgiven him of his sins as he repented so that he could organize the church and baptize people into it with true priesthood power.
	</onlyinclude>		</onlyinclude>
	{{endnotes sources}}		{{endnotes sources}}

SpencerMarsh: /* Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon? */

2021-03-29T20:00:01Z

Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon?

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	~~LDS author~~ Daniel C. Peterson wrote in a similar vein:		Latter-day Saint scholar and apologist Daniel C. Peterson wrote in a similar vein:

	<blockquote>		<blockquote>

SpencerMarsh: /* Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon? */

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Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon?

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	<blockquote>35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—		<blockquote>35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—
			<br>
	36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.		36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

SpencerMarsh: /* Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon? */

2021-03-29T19:59:03Z

Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon?

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:59, 29 March 2021
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	<blockquote>		<blockquote>
	The case of Alma brings up at least two interesting questions: (1) Were the priests of Noah legitimate holders of legitimate priesthood, and (2) Where did Alma get his authority? We have to assume Alma and his one-time colleagues were ordained validly by Noah ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|11\|5}}), who was also ordained validly by his father, Zeniff. The fact that Noah was not righteous after he was ordained and that Alma himself was part of Noah’s priestly group during his early ministry has nothing to do with Alma’s priesthood authority. Until superior priesthood authority withdraws permission to exercise priestly functions, a legitimately ordained holder of the priesthood continues to hold valid priesthood-however unrighteous he may be, however dead to spiritual promptings, and however unlikely it may be that he will ever actually exercise his priesthood.<ref> Peterson inserts a footnote here, writing: The ancient Christian church faced this problem in the form of the Donatist schism, which was finally declared heretical in AD 405. The Donatists held that unrighteousness in a bishop or priest invalidated any and all ordinances that he might have performed. However, the Synod of Aries determined in AD 314. that the validity of baptisms and ordinations and the like did not depend upon the worthiness or merit of the officiator. (On the Donatists, and the related Novatianist and Meletian movements, see Christie-Murray 96–97.) Granted, the Christian church at this period was essentially apostate, but Latter-day Saints take basically the same position, and for good reason. If serious sin, as such, invalidated priesthood ordinances, we could never know whose marriage was legal, or who was really a member of the Church. Did the man who ordained you to the priesthood have a secret, unrepented sin? If he did, your ordination is invalid. Your mission was illegitimate, any converts you baptized are actually non-members, and you are living in adultery since you should never have been admitted to the temple. Any of your converts who served missions and baptized are similarly fraudulent, and the consequences ripple onward and outward in utterly unforeseeable ways. How could we ever be sure of anything?"</ref>		The case of Alma brings up at least two interesting questions: (1) Were the priests of Noah legitimate holders of legitimate priesthood, and (2) Where did Alma get his authority? We have to assume Alma and his one-time colleagues were ordained validly by Noah ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|11\|5}}), who was also ordained validly by his father, Zeniff. The fact that Noah was not righteous after he was ordained and that Alma himself was part of Noah’s priestly group during his early ministry has nothing to do with Alma’s priesthood authority. Until superior priesthood authority withdraws permission to exercise priestly functions, a legitimately ordained holder of the priesthood continues to hold valid priesthood—however unrighteous he may be, however dead to spiritual promptings, and however unlikely it may be that he will ever actually exercise his priesthood.<ref>Peterson inserts a footnote here, writing: The ancient Christian church faced this problem in the form of the Donatist schism, which was finally declared heretical in AD 405. The Donatists held that unrighteousness in a bishop or priest invalidated any and all ordinances that he might have performed. However, the Synod of Aries determined in AD 314. that the validity of baptisms and ordinations and the like did not depend upon the worthiness or merit of the officiator. (On the Donatists, and the related Novatianist and Meletian movements, see Christie-Murray 96–97.) Granted, the Christian church at this period was essentially apostate, but Latter-day Saints take basically the same position, and for good reason. If serious sin, as such, invalidated priesthood ordinances, we could never know whose marriage was legal, or who was really a member of the Church. Did the man who ordained you to the priesthood have a secret, unrepented sin? If he did, your ordination is invalid. Your mission was illegitimate, any converts you baptized are actually non-members, and you are living in adultery since you should never have been admitted to the temple. Any of your converts who served missions and baptized are similarly fraudulent, and the consequences ripple onward and outward in utterly unforeseeable ways. How could we ever be sure of anything?"</ref>

	Alma, in fact, claimed to have authority from God (Mosiah 18:13), a claim which Mormon implicitly acknowledges as valid ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|18\|18}}). Alma was a descendant of Nephi ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|17\|2}}), a fact which may or may not be significant in discussing his priesthood authority since we do not know precisely how the priesthood functioned or was apportioned among the Nephites. Certainly most, if not in fact all, of the priests and kings of whom we know anything in the Book of Mormon up to this point were of the lineage of Nephi. Furthermore, in the power vacuum left by the absence of king Noah, the people implored Alma to assume the royal title and prerogatives ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|23\|6}}). He turned down the title, but out of necessity, he did carry out some kingly duties. Alma ordained priests and teachers for his outcast people, among whom he was in fact the sole human source of authority ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|18\|18}}; {{sv\|\|Mosiah\|23\|17}}).<ref>{{Book:Nyman Tate:Mosiah Salvation Only Through Christ\|author=Daniel C. Peterson\|article=[http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-mosiah-salvation-only-through-christ/11-priesthood-mosiah Priesthood in Mosiah]\|pages=187–210}} </ref></blockquote>		Alma, in fact, claimed to have authority from God ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|18\|13}}), a claim which Mormon implicitly acknowledges as valid ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|18\|18}}). Alma was a descendant of Nephi ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|17\|2}}), a fact which may or may not be significant in discussing his priesthood authority since we do not know precisely how the priesthood functioned or was apportioned among the Nephites. Certainly most, if not in fact all, of the priests and kings of whom we know anything in the Book of Mormon up to this point were of the lineage of Nephi. Furthermore, in the power vacuum left by the absence of king Noah, the people implored Alma to assume the royal title and prerogatives ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|23\|6}}). He turned down the title, but out of necessity, he did carry out some kingly duties. Alma ordained priests and teachers for his outcast people, among whom he was in fact the sole human source of authority ({{s\|\|Mosiah\|18\|18}}; {{sv\|\|Mosiah\|23\|17}}).<ref>{{Book:Nyman Tate:Mosiah Salvation Only Through Christ\|author=Daniel C. Peterson\|article=[http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-mosiah-salvation-only-through-christ/11-priesthood-mosiah Priesthood in Mosiah]\|pages=187–210}} </ref></blockquote>

			We may begin to deal with one related but tangential question here: How is it that Alma retained his right to the priesthood if he was wicked? Doctrine and Covenants 121:35–37 states:

			<blockquote>35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

			36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

			37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.</blockquote>

			This scriptures states that the power of the priesthood is withdrawn if the priesthood is used for unrighteous ends. How did Alma retain his priesthood? How did Noah validly ordain Alma? With regard to Noah we must, as Peterson states, assume that Noah at one time was validly ordained and worthily held the priesthood so that he could ordain Alma. For Alma, the answer may lie in the fact that Alma repented of his sins. He followed Abinadi's exhortations and sought to follow God. God must have forgiven him of his sins as he repented so that he could organize the church and baptize people into it.
	</onlyinclude>		</onlyinclude>
	{{endnotes sources}}		{{endnotes sources}}

RogerNicholson at 06:13, 2 March 2018

2018-03-02T06:13:31Z

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			[[es:Pregunta: ¿De dónde obtuvo Alma el Anciano la autoridad legítima del sacerdocio para bautizar en las aguas de Mormón?]]

	[[Category:Difficult Questions for Mormons]]		[[Category:Difficult Questions for Mormons]]

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	==Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon?==		==Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon?==

Priesthood authority in the Book of Mormon - Revision history

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DavidSmith: DavidSmith moved page Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon? to Priesthood authority in the Book of Mormon: part of content consolidation and simplification project

SpencerMarsh: /* Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon? */

SpencerMarsh: /* Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon? */

SpencerMarsh: /* Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon? */

SpencerMarsh: /* Question: Where did Alma the Elder get the legitimate priesthood authority to baptize at the waters of Mormon? */

RogerNicholson at 06:13, 2 March 2018

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