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Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:18:Joseph Smith's doctrine and character demand our amazement

2014-10-13T04:47:02Z

GregSmith:

{{FME-Source
|title="Evidence That Demands Our Amazement"
|category=
|catname=
}}<onlyinclude>
=="Evidence That Demands Our Amazement"==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
By any measurement, Joseph Smith was a remarkable person. His combination of organizational acumen with spiritual originality and '''personal decorum and modesty is rare in the history of religion'''. He was so steadfast in his ability to inspire men and women through times of great hardship that none of those who knew him could claim to fully understand him. He knew more about theology and philosophy than it was reasonable for anyone in his position to know, as if he were dipping into the deep, collective unconsciousness of Christianity with a very long pen. He read the Bible in ways so novel that he can be considered a theological innocent—he expanded and revised the biblical narrative without questioning its authority—yet he brusquely overturned ancient and impregnable metaphysical assumptions with the aplomb of an assistant professor. For someone so charismatic, '''he was exceptionally humble''', even ordinary, and he delegated authority with the wisdom of a man looking far into the future for the well-being of his followers. It would be tempting to compare him to Mohammed—who also combined pragmatic political skill and a genius for religious innovation—if he were not so deeply Christian. [Title is Webb's.]<ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}} {{ea}}</ref>{{Rp|95}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Reputation|Reputation]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Personality|Personality of Joseph Smith]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Personality/Humility|Humility of Joseph Smith]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Pace of Joseph's religious innovation|Pace of Joseph's religious innovation]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Robustness of Joseph's religious innovation|Robustness of Joseph's religious innovation]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Scope of Joseph's religious innovation|Scope of Joseph's religious innovation]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:18:Joseph Smith's doctrine and character demand our amazement

2014-10-13T04:45:21Z

GregSmith:

{{FME-Source
|title=Evidence That Demands Our Amazement
|category=
|catname=
}}<onlyinclude>
==Evidence That Demands Our Amazement==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
By any measurement, Joseph Smith was a remarkable person. His combination of organizational acumen with spiritual originality and '''personal decorum and modesty is rare in the history of religion'''. He was so steadfast in his ability to inspire men and women through times of great hardship that none of those who knew him could claim to fully understand him. He knew more about theology and philosophy than it was reasonable for anyone in his position to know, as if he were dipping into the deep, collective unconsciousness of Christianity with a very long pen. He read the Bible in ways so novel that he can be considered a theological innocent—he expanded and revised the biblical narrative without questioning its authority—yet he brusquely overturned ancient and impregnable metaphysical assumptions with the aplomb of an assistant professor. For someone so charismatic, '''he was exceptionally humble''', even ordinary, and he delegated authority with the wisdom of a man looking far into the future for the well-being of his followers. It would be tempting to compare him to Mohammed—who also combined pragmatic political skill and a genius for religious innovation—if he were not so deeply Christian. <ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}} {{ea}}</ref>{{Rp|95}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Reputation|Reputation]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Personality|Personality of Joseph Smith]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Personality/Humility|Humility of Joseph Smith]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Pace of Joseph's religious innovation|Pace of Joseph's religious innovation]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Robustness of Joseph's religious innovation|Robustness of Joseph's religious innovation]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Scope of Joseph's religious innovation|Scope of Joseph's religious innovation]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:21:Joseph Smith's theosis does not supplant God or veer into polytheism

2014-10-13T04:20:48Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Common misrepresentation: Joseph Smith ''does not'' teach polytheism or "supplanting God" with his doctrine of human divination |category= |catname= }}<onl..."

{{FME-Source
|title=Common misrepresentation: Joseph Smith ''does not'' teach polytheism or "supplanting God" with his doctrine of human divination
|category=
|catname=
}}<onlyinclude>
==Common misrepresentation: Joseph Smith ''does not'' teach polytheism or "supplanting God" with his doctrine of human divination==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
Two corrections of common misrepresentations of Smith’s theology need to be made at this point....[The] [s]econd [is that] even though Smith says that believers will become gods, he also says that
they will be kings and priests to God, a phrase that qualifies his alleged polytheism. Clearly, the faithful are meant to share in the divine power and glory, and thus they too will have mastery over life and death, in the sense of being able to creatively participate in the creation, sustenance, and governance of life. Divine power seems to be the universal constant in this teaching, but it is not so diffuse that it has no source. God’s power will be shared, but it will still be God’s.<ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|96–97}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:Doctrine/Human divination|Human divination / ''theosis'']]
[[Category:Interfaith issues/Charges/Polytheism|Charges: Mormons are polytheists]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:20:Joseph Smith does not deny grace or claim to earn salvation

2014-10-13T04:19:47Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Common misrepresentation: Joseph Smith ''does not'' reject the efficacy or necessity of grace |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==Common misrepresentati..."

{{FME-Source
|title=Common misrepresentation: Joseph Smith ''does not'' reject the efficacy or necessity of grace
|category=
|catname=
}}<onlyinclude>
==Common misrepresentation: Joseph Smith ''does not'' reject the efficacy or necessity of grace==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
Two corrections of common misrepresentations of Smith’s theology need to be made at this point. First, Mormons are often charged with denying the efficacy of grace and thus making salvation dependent upon the exercise of the individual’s free will. All theologians use the language of effort, reform, and growth, so this is not a fair charge.... In any case, Smith describes the process of sanctification as being “from grace to grace.” Rather than replicating Pelagianism, Smith is siding with that aspect of the Christian tradition best represented by Thomas Aquinas, which says we can and must cooperate with divine grace in order to permit it to actualize our potential for divinization. <ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|96–97}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:Interfaith issues/Charges/Deny grace and earning salvation|Charges: Mormons are Pelagians]]
[[Category:Interfaith issues/Charges/Deny grace and earning salvation|Charges: Mormons deny grace]]
[[Category:Interfaith issues/Charges/Deny grace and earning salvation|Charges: Mormons try to earn salvation]]
[[Category:Doctrine/Human divination|Human divination / ''theosis'']]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Doctrinal change/Moral agency|Moral agency-Free agency-Free will]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:19:Vastness of Joseph Smith's theology - it is not pagan

2014-10-13T04:19:03Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Joseph Smith's theology is not pagan—his theology is vast as the multiverse, and eliminates Neo-Platonism and Augustine |category= |catname= }}<onlyi..."

{{FME-Source
|title=Joseph Smith's theology is not pagan—his theology is vast as the multiverse, and eliminates Neo-Platonism and Augustine
|category=
|catname=
}}<onlyinclude>
==Joseph Smith's theology is not pagan—his theology is vast as the multiverse, and eliminates Neo-Platonism and Augustine==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
Far from reverting to paganism or simply falling into sloppy thinking, Smith was carrying his confidence in Christ to its fullest possible expression....All things are possible not only for us but also for God, in that this universe does not exhaust the divine creativity. The universe is not big enough to hold the majesty of God’s ingenuity. Rather than reacting negatively to the apparently infinite expansiveness of the universe, Smith called astronomy’s bluff and multiplied the universe by the same expansive factor. Smith was wiping the theological slate clean of the Neo-Platonic metaphysics that had so influenced Augustine.<ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|96–97}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:Interfaith issues/Charges/Paganism|Charges: Mormons are pagans]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Robustness of Joseph's religious innovation|Robustness of Joseph's religious innovation]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Scope of Joseph's religious innovation|Scope of Joseph's religious innovation]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:18:Joseph Smith's doctrine and character demand our amazement

2014-10-13T04:18:31Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Evidence That Demands Our Amazement |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==Evidence That Demands Our Amazement== Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<r..."

{{FME-Source
|title=Evidence That Demands Our Amazement
|category=
|catname=
}}<onlyinclude>
==Evidence That Demands Our Amazement==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
By any measurement, Joseph Smith was a remarkable person. His combination of organizational acumen with spiritual originality and personal decorum and modesty is rare in the history of religion. He was so steadfast in his ability to inspire men and women through times of great hardship that none of those who knew him could claim to fully understand him. He knew more about theology and philosophy than it was reasonable for anyone in his position to know, as if he were dipping into the deep, collective unconsciousness of Christianity with a very long pen. He read the Bible in ways so novel that he can be considered a theological innocent—he expanded and revised the biblical narrative without questioning its authority—yet he brusquely overturned ancient and impregnable metaphysical assumptions with the aplomb of an assistant professor. For someone so charismatic, he was exceptionally humble, even ordinary, and he delegated authority with the wisdom of a man looking far into the future for the well-being of his followers. It would be tempting to compare him to Mohammed—who also combined pragmatic political skill and a genius for religious innovation—if he were not so deeply Christian. <ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|95}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Reputation|Reputation]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Personality|Personality of Joseph Smith]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Personality/Humility|Humility of Joseph Smith]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Pace of Joseph's religious innovation|Pace of Joseph's religious innovation]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Robustness of Joseph's religious innovation|Robustness of Joseph's religious innovation]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Scope of Joseph's religious innovation|Scope of Joseph's religious innovation]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:17:Creedal Christians can learn from Mormon views about Jesus and creation

2014-10-13T04:18:04Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Creedal Christians can learn from LDS views about Jesus Christ and creation |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==Creedal Christians can learn from LDS vi..."

{{FME-Source
|title=Creedal Christians can learn from LDS views about Jesus Christ and creation
|category=
|catname=
}}<onlyinclude>
==Creedal Christians can learn from LDS views about Jesus Christ and creation==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
[In LDS doctrine] ''Matter as we know it has a beginning, an origin, in Christ, but matter as it can be, in its perfected form, is eternally an attribute of the divine.'' In this way, the eternity of matter can be conceived without falling into the trap of pantheism, and this possibility, I am convinced, is precisely what Joseph Smith saw, even if he did not put it into these words or this theological context.

Th Mormon Church stakes its whole theology on the coherence of the idea that God formed the world from a material substance that is not totally unlike his own divine nature. That makes Mormonism either a religious oddity in Western history or an utterly crucial metaphysical correction to our understanding of the role and value of matter in God’s creation of the world. At the very least, Mormonism presents a prod to theological thought at the precise time when materiality is more central to public awareness than ever before. Our relationship to the material world, whether it goes by the name of environmentalism, ecology, sustainability, or evolution has never been so urgently pressed before us as today. To respond to this urgency, we need not only an ethic but also a metaphysics of matter.

We cannot know how to treat matter unless we know what it is, and the nature of matter has to include but ultimately go beyond the specificities of science. We need to know what matter is for, where it comes from, and to what extent it is identical to what we are. These are the central questions of our time, and creedal Christians can answer them only in a self-critical and mutually beneficial dialogue with Latter-day Saints—and that dialogue has to begin with an assessment of the life and thought of Joseph Smith. <ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}} {{ea}}</ref>{{Rp|94–95}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:Interfaith issues/Sectarian anti-Mormons|Anti-Mormons: sectarian]]
[[Category:Doctrine/Matter and embodiment|Matter and embodiment]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:16:Joseph Smith more coherent than Augustine on matter and the divine

2014-10-13T04:17:40Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Augustine's views about matter are perhaps less coherent than Joseph Smith's |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==Augustine's views about matter are perh..."

{{FME-Source
|title=Augustine's views about matter are perhaps less coherent than Joseph Smith's
|category=
|catname=
}}<onlyinclude>
==Augustine's views about matter are perhaps less coherent than Joseph Smith's==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
Augustine’s position is actually not as sound as it first appears. If God makes the world out of himself, does it necessarily have all the attributes of the divine? Does it necessarily follow that matter is a substance that equals God’s own power? The problem with Augustine’s position (and the whole of classical theism on this issue) is that he can imagine no middle ground between creating and shaping. From the perspective of classical theism, if God does not create matter out of nothing, then God merely shapes (or adds form to) the matter that is already there, and that means that God is neither infinite nor omnipotent. If matter is too close to God, then God must not have complete mastery over it. Likewise, if matter comes from God, then God must be tainted by it, which means that God shares in its corruptibility. Either way, God would not be God, or at least, God would not be infinite. But what if there is a middle ground? What if matter is one of God’s perfections without the world being divine? If the perfection of matter is already an expression of who God is (indeed, if it is the substance of the Father’s relation to the Son), then matter can come from God without compromising God’s nature. Moreover, God would be neither master nor victim of matter’s nature, since God’s relation to matter would be nothing more than a reiteration of the Father’s relation to the Son.<ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|92–93}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:Doctrine/Matter and embodiment|Matter and embodiment]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Philosophy/Augustine|Augustine]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:15:Christian beliefs do not need to have Neo-Platonic influence to be true

2014-10-13T04:17:17Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=LDS doctrine rejects Neo-Plantonic accretions, but this does not make them automatically false |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==LDS doctrine rejects..."

{{FME-Source
|title=LDS doctrine rejects Neo-Plantonic accretions, but this does not make them automatically false
|category=
|catname=
}}<onlyinclude>
==LDS doctrine rejects Neo-Plantonic accretions, but this does not make them automatically false==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
Mormon arguments deserve to be examined on their own grounds for internal consistency and biblical adequacy. Not being Platonic is not equivalent to not being rational. <ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|92}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Philosophy/Neo-Platonism|Neo-Platonism]]
[[Category:Interfaith issues/Sectarian anti-Mormons|Anti-Mormons: sectarian]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:14:Joseph Smith could hold his own in early Christian debates

2014-10-13T04:16:50Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=[Joseph] "Smith would have held his own in debating with" Neo-Platonists, Gnostics, and early Christian theologians |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==..."

{{FME-Source
|title=[Joseph] "Smith would have held his own in debating with" Neo-Platonists, Gnostics, and early Christian theologians
|category=
|catname=
}}<onlyinclude>
==[Joseph] "Smith would have held his own in debating with" Neo-Platonists, Gnostics, and early Christian theologians==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
[I]t would be a mistake to think of Mormonism as simply rejecting the Greek heritage of metaphysics. Paulsen has done more than any Mormon thinker to demonstrate how Smith’s idea of divine embodiment would have been in the theological mainstream prior to Origen and Augustine. In fact, [David] Paulsen, who is also a professor at Brigham Young University, has done more
than any theologian of any denomination to rediscover the metaphysical depths of anthropomorphism in early Christian theology, and his work has been extremely helpful for my own project. Paulsen shows how the Mormon version of the restoration of the Church requires a strong reading of the history of metaphysics. Joseph Smith spoke plainly, but that should not disguise the revolutionary nature of his claims. I have discussed emerging ideas of matter in the context of the Neo-Platonists, the Gnostics, and the early theologians, and Smith would have held his own in debating with all three groups. Smith had the imagination of the Gnostics in his multilayered portrait of the divinities that populate the cosmos. Nonetheless, he would have agreed with the Neo-Platonists and the Christians that the Gnostics erred in identifying matter with evil. He would have liked the Platonic concept of pre-existent souls as well as Plato’s portrait of the Demiurge as being not absolutely different from the world. Indeed, his sense of the rhythmic and cyclical movement of spirits from a refined to an embodied state and back again would have led him to express great interest in the circular framework of Plotinus, but Smith would not have accepted the elitism and intellectualism built into Neo-Platonic thought. He would have sympathized with Christians who struggled to identify nature’s inherent goodness, but he would not have shared their solution in attributing infinity to God. Smith absorbed and revised so many Christian traditions, but negative theology has virtually no room in his thought. In the debates over infinity, Smith, ever the concrete thinker, would have affirmed an actual, as opposed to a potential infinity in order to defend his vision of the afterlife as an eternal progression through space and time. His cosmos was big enough for both the eternity of the divine and the infinity of matter, but his materialism left no room for one entity that is both eternal and infinite. In sum, he would have de-Augustinized theology in order to baptize Greek philosophy anew. <ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|91}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Scope of Joseph's religious innovation|Scope of Joseph's religious innovation]]
[[Category:Prophets/Joseph Smith/Robustness of Joseph's religious innovation|Robustness of Joseph's religious innovation]]
[[Category:Doctrine/Matter and embodiment|Matter and embodiment]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Philosophy/Neo-Platonism|Neo-Platonism]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:13:Mormon reject Augustinian ideas about depravity and original sin

2014-10-13T04:16:23Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Mormons reject the legacy of Augustine: especially of humanity's corruption due to original sin |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==Mormons reject the l..."

{{FME-Source
|title=Mormons reject the legacy of Augustine: especially of humanity's corruption due to original sin
|category=
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}}<onlyinclude>
==Mormons reject the legacy of Augustine: especially of humanity's corruption due to original sin==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
Mormonism is not the return of Eutyches, but it just might be a form of Christianity deprived of the influence of Augustine. This is true in a variety of ways....First, Mormonism’s optimistic view of humanity puts it firmly on the side against Augustine’s doctrine of original sin. <ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|89}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Philosophy/Augustine|Augustine]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Philosophy/Neo-Platonism|Neo-Platonism]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Doctrinal change|Doctrinal change during apostasy]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Doctrinal change/Original sin|Depravity and original sin]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:12:Mormons are not Arians

2014-10-13T04:15:59Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Mormons are not Arians |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==Mormons are not Arians== Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is..."

{{FME-Source
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==Mormons are not Arians==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
By now it should be clear how narrow-minded the charge is that Mormonism is a modern version of Arianism....For me, Mormonism raises the hypothetical question of what would have happened if the best theological minds had dedicated themselves to explicating all of the implications of the heavenly flesh position....we cannot simply turn back the clock to try to find a place and time where we can locate Mormonism in order to make it look familiar. Comparing Joseph Smith to Arius, who denied the Son’s equality with the Father, or, better, Eutyches, an early defender of Heavenly Flesh Christology, is not an unproductive thought experiment, but it misses the point that Mormonism demands a rethinking of classical theism from the ground up and thus a retelling of the Christian story from the Gospels forward—and the ground upon which it erects its speculations is as earthy as it can be. <ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|89}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy|Apostasy]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Creeds|Creeds]]
[[Category:Interfaith issues/Charges/Arian|Charges: Mormons are Arians]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:11:Do Mormons make too much of Jesus Christ

2014-10-13T04:15:41Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Creedal Christians in effect say the LDS make "too much of Jesus Christ" |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==Creedal Christians in effect say the LDS ma..."

{{FME-Source
|title=Creedal Christians in effect say the LDS make "too much of Jesus Christ"
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==Creedal Christians in effect say the LDS make "too much of Jesus Christ"==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
Christ has never been ''logos asarkos'' (the Word without form or the divine voice without body). If this is theological error, it is on the side of excess rather than deficiency, resulting in an immoderate Christology born out of a surplus rather than an insufficiency of faith. It puts creedal Christians in the odd position of saying that Mormons make too much of Jesus
Christ. Is such excess really a vice? <ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|89}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:Jesus Christ/Divinity|Jesus Christ: divinity]]
[[Category:Doctrine/Matter and embodiment|Matter and embodiment]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:10:Preexistent Jesus and a divinized humanity

2014-10-13T04:15:23Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Pre-existent Jesus and divinized humanity |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==Pre-existent Jesus and divinized humanity== Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. W..."

{{FME-Source
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==Pre-existent Jesus and divinized humanity==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
Mormons go so far as to insist that God was once a man just like us, which can sound confusing, but it is, in a way, the flipside to the belief that we will become, in the afterlife, just like him. There is a grand and cosmic circularity that connects Jesus with humanity, and it never stops rolling, like a dance with countless changing partners and yet everyone always comes around to dancing with him.<ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|88–89}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:Jesus Christ/Divinity|Jesus Christ: divinity]]
[[Category:Doctrine/Human divination|Human divination / ''theosis'']]
[[Category:Doctrine/Matter and embodiment|Matter and embodiment]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:9:Mormon trinitarian views are not polytheistic

2014-10-13T04:14:49Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=LDS trinitarian views are not polytheistic |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==LDS trinitarian views are not polytheistic== Non-LDS Christian Stephen H...."

{{FME-Source
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==LDS trinitarian views are not polytheistic==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
[In Mormon theology] Jesus Christ and human beings partake of the same eternal properties, but they share in those properties in different ways. Jesus Christ has the priority, which is why...Mormons call him “our Elder brother.” This language sounds like it could be a classical example of subordinationism, that is, the subordination of the Son to the Father, thus rendering Christ a secondary or inferior God, which also runs into the problem of polytheism. '''More generously interpreted''', Mormonism takes a strongly social view of the Trinity, seeing each member as an independent or relatively independent person, a position that is not uncommon among many creedal Christian theologians today. Their independence is relative because...Latter-day Saints “believe they are infinitely more one than they are separate.” Indeed, they enjoy a transcendental unity of divine indwelling that serves as a blessed state that all of God’s children can hope to attain.<ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|87–88}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:Doctrine/Human divination|Human divination / ''theosis'']]
[[Category:Doctrine/Matter and embodiment|Matter and embodiment]]
[[Category:Interfaith issues/Charges/Subordinationism|Charges: Mormons are subordinationists]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:8:Revelation vs historical guesswork about Jesus

2014-10-13T04:14:26Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Revelation versus "historical guesswork" about Jesus |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==Revelation versus "historical guesswork" about Jesus== Non-LDS..."

{{FME-Source
|title=Revelation versus "historical guesswork" about Jesus
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==Revelation versus "historical guesswork" about Jesus==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
Still, too much theology today is beholden to historical guesswork that keeps Jesus bound by the written page. Seen in this light, Mormonism unleashes a squall of fresh air on the question of who Jesus Christ really is. <ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|YYYY}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:Prophets/Loss of prophets|Loss of prophets]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Doctrinal change/On-going revelation|On-going revelation]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:7:Mormons and creatio ex nihilo

2014-10-13T04:14:06Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Mormons and ''creatio ex nihilo'' (creation out of nothing) |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==Mormons and ''creatio ex nihilo'' (creation out of nothi..."

{{FME-Source
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==Mormons and ''creatio ex nihilo'' (creation out of nothing)==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
Thological and philosophical critics of Mormonism often focus on their rejection of the doctrine of creation out of nothing, as if the Mormon relationship to traditional theology is merely negative. What critics miss is the flip side of this rejection, namely, the affirmation of the eternity of matter and how this affirmation functions as the philosophical foundation for a
dramatic revision of the pre-existence of Jesus Christ. <ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|87}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Philosophy/Neo-Platonism|Neo-Platonism]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Doctrinal change/Creatio ex nihilo|''Creatio ex nihilo'' (creation out of nothing)]]
[[Category:Doctrine/Matter and embodiment|Matter and embodiment]]
[[Category:Jesus Christ/Divinity|Jesus Christ: divinity]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:6:Mormons retrieved early Christian beliefs rejected by creeds

2014-10-13T04:13:48Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Mormons have "picked up" discarded beliefs of early Christians |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==Mormons have "picked up" discarded beliefs of early C..."

{{FME-Source
|title=Mormons have "picked up" discarded beliefs of early Christians
|category=
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==Mormons have "picked up" discarded beliefs of early Christians==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
Perhaps the most complicating factor for creedal dialogue with Latterday Saints is that Mormons, unlike other restorationists, were not content to flunder in suspicion of the way the early Church absorbed Greek metaphysics. Instead, Mormons put the Platonization of Christianity at the heart of their critique of the ossifiation and corruption of Christianity. Something went terribly wrong after the age of the Apostles, they argue, and that something has to do with the theological turn toward a metaphysics of immaterialism. Far from ignoring early church history, then, Mormons are committed to an interrogation of the relationship of theology to philosophy that objects to nearly every development that led to the ecumenical creeds. They do not just raise objections, however. It is as if, as they follow the road orthodox theologians took to the creeds, Mormons pause to pick up the detritus that was jettisoned along the way. Thy recycle these discarded beliefs into a shining, novel creation of their own. <ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|86}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Philosophy/Neo-Platonism|Neo-Platonism]]
[[Category:Doctrine/Matter and embodiment|Matter and embodiment]]
[[Category:Jesus Christ/Divinity|Jesus Christ: divinity]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:5:Mormons, Nicea, and Plato

2014-10-13T04:13:25Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Mormonism does not use the Nicene Creed, and invokes earlier Christian ideas that were overshadowed by Plato |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==Mormoni..."

{{FME-Source
|title=Mormonism does not use the Nicene Creed, and invokes earlier Christian ideas that were overshadowed by Plato
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==Mormonism does not use the Nicene Creed, and invokes earlier Christian ideas that were overshadowed by Plato==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
Bluntly put, Mormons do not play by the rules of the Nicene Creed. Their theological arguments can look like a form of cheating when, in reality, they are trying to change the way the game is played. Mormonism is like an alternative reality come to life—a counterfactual history of post-Nicene developments of pre-Nicene theology, the ultimate “what if ” theological parlor game.
What if Tertullian had been more successful in his explication of the materiality of the soul? What if the monks of Egypt had won their battle in defense of anthropomorphism? What if Augustine had not read the books of the Platonists? Mormonism invites creedal Christians into a world where everything is slightly but significantly skewed from what they are used to <ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|85}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Creeds/Nicene|Nicene creed]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Philosophy/Augustine|Augustine]]
[[Category:History/Apostasy/Philosophy/Neo-Platonism|Neo-Platonism]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:4:Mormons don't know where to stop giving glory to Jesus

2014-10-13T04:12:59Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title="Mormons are Christians who do not know where to stop" |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> =="Mormons are Christians who do not know where to stop"== Non-..."

{{FME-Source
|title="Mormons are Christians who do not know where to stop"
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=="Mormons are Christians who do not know where to stop"==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
In affirming the divinity of Jesus, Mormons are Christians who do not know where to stop. Thy answer the question of whether it is possible to say too much about Jesus with a resounding “No!”
Indeed, never has a religious movement combined so effortlessly the most extravagant assertions with the most level-headed and commonsensical tone. Mormon rhetoric is guided by the conviction that the only way to say enough about Christ is to say too much. As a result, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints puts Jesus Christ front and center in ways that would make many members of mainline Protestant denominations blush. Mormon theology is Christology unbound—extremism in defense of Christology that can appear eccentric only to those who think that understatement is a virtue. <ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|85}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}

[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:Jesus Christ/Divinity|Jesus Christ: divinity]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:3:Mormonism does justice to glory and honor of Christ

2014-10-13T04:12:23Z

GregSmith: GregSmith moved page Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:3:Mormonism does justice to glory and majesty of Christ to Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:3:Mormonism does justice to glory and honor of Christ without leaving a redirect

{{FME-Source
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==Mormonism's differences try "to do justice to the honor and glory of Jesus Christ."==
Non-LDS Christian Stephen H. Webb wrote:<ref name="webbID">"Webb is Professor of Philosophy and Religion at Wabash College in Crawfordsville, Indiana. He is a graduate of Wabash College and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago before returning to his alma mater to teach. Born in 1961 he grew up at Englewood Christian Church, an evangelical church. He joined the Disciples of Christ during He was briefly a Lutheran, and on Easter Sunday, 2007, he officially came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church."</ref>
<blockquote>
Mormonism is a mirror because it departs from traditional theology most radically only when it is trying to do justice to the honor and glory of Jesus Christ. <ref name="webbBook">{{BYUS|author=Stephen H. Webb|article=[http://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/50.3WebbGodbodied-a31ea084-327e-467b-bedc-4fa6c6f7d0c4.pdf Godbodied: The Matter of the Latter-day Saints] (reprint from his book ''Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter'' (Oxford University Press, 2012)|vol=50|num=3|date=2011}}</ref>{{Rp|85}}</blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}
[[Category:Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Christology]]
[[Category:Christians, Mormons are]]
[[Category:Jesus Christ/Divinity|Jesus Christ: divinity]]

Source:Webb:BYUS:2011:3:Mormonism does justice to glory and honor of Christ

2014-10-13T04:12:03Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Mormonism's differences try "to do justice to the honor and glory of Jesus Christ." |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==Mormonism's differences try "to..."

Source:Reexploring the Book of Mormon:Ch:24:1:Seven tribes of Lehi descendants

2014-09-16T03:03:48Z

GregSmith:

Source:Reexploring the Book of Mormon:Ch:26:1:Migrations and lost arts

2014-09-16T03:01:40Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Examples of lost arts in the ancient world |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==Examples of lost arts in the ancient world== <blockquote> The Book of Mor..."

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==Examples of lost arts in the ancient world==
<blockquote>
The Book of Mormon claims that groups such as the Nephites and the Jaredites migrated from one area to another. That suggestion has sometimes been rejected because a particular idea or technological feature in the area of origin has not been found in the destination area. The absence of such "obviously useful" cultural items is used to argue that no migration took place.

In some cases, it is possible that technology was simply lost. It may have lost its usefulness in the new location, or it may have been forgotten as certain people became less cultured or less civilized. In other cases, the archaeological evidence may simply be incomplete or unrecognized.

The true arch is often cited to support the idea that there was no contact between the pre-Columbian Eastern and Western Hemispheres. Professor Linton Satterthwaite had accepted that view, but then found himself having to change: "It has been usual to suppose that the principle of the true arch was unknown to the American Indian, though here and there in some particular structure it has been argued that the principle, though not obvious, was really present." Yet finally, on the basis of a field reconnaissance, Satterthwaite was left with "no doubt that the Maya at La Muñeca roofed a long room with the true arch, and that they knew exactly what they were doing."

Earlier, Alfred Tozzer had reported that at Nakum, Guatemala, "two lateral doorways have what may be truthfully called concrete arches, . . . the only examples of the true arch which I have met with in Maya buildings." E. G. Squier had reported an arch of adobe bricks from Pachacamac, Peru, in the 1870s.3 There are other examples that either are not complete arches or have questionable pre-Columbian dates. But a single good example proves the point without multiplying cases.

The potter's wheel is another feature long supposed to have been entirely absent from the New World. That notion too has now had to change. Samuel Lothrop reported decades ago seeing in an archaeological context in Peru what "seemed to be" just such a device. Then in the early 1970s, Terence Grieder settled the matter. In the grave of a high-status woman near the Peruvian site of Pashash, he found scores of wheel-turned hemispherical ceramic cups. These offerings accompanied the burial of an aristocratic woman (although cups of the same shape in commoners' graves showed no evidence of being made on the wheel). Furthermore, the grave offerings showed fifteen stone cups evidently turned on a "lathe," perhaps consisting of a wooden shaft with a flywheel attached that could be set in motion by pulling a cord wrapped around the shaft. Archaeological evidence of these wheeled devices for processing clay and stone lasted a maximum of two hundred years, then totally disappeared.

The arch and potter's wheel join other examples to warn us that even what we might consider "obviously useful" devices may be lost to a people.{{Read more|url=http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1110&index=26}}<ref>{{Book:Welch:Reexploring the Book of Mormon|pages=[http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1110&index=26 Chapter 26], {{sofr}}|author=John L. Sorenson|article=Lost Arts}} </ref></blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}

[[Category:Reexploring the Book of Mormon]]
[[Category:Book of Mormon/Anthropology/New World|New world]]
[[Category:Editors/Scriptures to hotlink]]

Source:Reexploring the Book of Mormon:Ch:25:1:Antenantiosis in the Book of Mormon

2014-09-16T02:56:45Z

GregSmith: Created page with "{{FME-Source |title=Antenantiosis in the Book of Mormon |category= |catname= }}<onlyinclude> ==Antenantiosis in the Book of Mormon== <blockquote> An interesting figure of spee..."

2014-09-13T20:31:43Z

GregSmith:

{{FME-Source
|title=Nephite kings and the temple
|category=
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}}<onlyinclude>
==Nephite kings and the temple==
<blockquote>
Becoming a king, issuing laws or judgments, and performing many other acts of legal consequence in the ancient world were virtually unthinkable without a temple in which such acts could be solemnized in the presence of a god.....Similarly, Mosiah II's coronation in the city of Zarahemla (see Mosiah 1:9-6:3) and Jesus' giving of the new law in Bountiful (see 3 Nephi 11-18) both took place at temples.<ref>{{Book:Welch:Reexploring the Book of Mormon|pages=[http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1110&index=17 Chapter 17], {{sofr}}|author=John M. Lundquist and John W. Welch|article=Kingship and Temple in 2 Nephi 5–10}} </ref></blockquote></onlyinclude>

{{Endnotes sources}}

[[Category:Reexploring the Book of Mormon]]
[[Category:Book of Mormon/Anthropology/Culture/Old World|Old World]]
[[Category:Book of Mormon/Anthropology/Culture/New World|New World]]
[[Category:Book of Mormon/Anthropology/Kingship|Kingship in the Book of Mormon]]
[[Category:Book of Mormon/Anthropology/Law|Law]]
[[Category:Book of Mormon/Elements/Temple|Temple in Book of Mormon]]
[[Category:Book of Mormon/Elements/Jesus Christ|Jesus Christ]]
[[Category:Editors:Scripture verses to hotlink]]