View source for Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Incident

{{FairMormon}}  
{{H1
|L= Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Incident
|H=Response to MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"
|T=[[../|MormonThink]]
|A=Anonymous
|<=[[../Blacks and the Priesthood|Blacks and the Priesthood]]
|>=[[../Conflicts with Science|Conflicts with Science]]
}}
[[File:Mormonthink.chart.greek.psalter.png|center|frame]]
<onlyinclude>
{{H2
|L= Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Greek Psalter Incident
|H=Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"
|S=
|L1=Response to claim: "there really is little to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM"
|L2=Response to claim: "it's prudent to examine whatever source documents that may exist for those translations...very few members are aware of Joseph's encounter with a Greek Psalter in 1842"
|L3=Response to claim: "Joseph...apparently knew Egyptian well enough to translate it"
|L4=Response to claim: "Joseph examined the ancient document and replied that it was a Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics"
|L5=Response to claim: "Caswall's experience with Joseph Smith at Nauvoo on 18-19 April 1842 expresses the frustration of an increasing number of LDS students with Joseph's ability to translate ancient documents"
|L6=Response to claim: "We regret that we could not find this issue discussed on the Church's official website"
|L7=Response to claim: "Critic's response. We support professor Caswall's response to Joseph's error"
|L8=Response to claim: "Joseph Smith did the exact same thing with the Greek Psalter that he did with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook Plates"
|L9=Response to claim: "it seems likely that the event probably happened pretty much as Caswall related"
|L10=Response to claim: "If this was the only translation issue that was damaging to the prophet then we would dismiss it"
|L11=Response to claim: "if he really translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri then he would know what Egyptian characters are"
|L12=Response to claim: "Although the Greek Psalter incident is the translation effort with the least amount of significance, it further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer"
|L13=Response to claim: "There is a difference between an isolated incident and a pattern"
}}
</onlyinclude>

==Response to claim: "there really is little to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=The most notable translation is of course the Book of Mormon. As the angel took back the gold plates from which the BOM was translated, there really is little to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM. 
}}
{{propaganda|Except, of course, the 500+ page Book of Mormon text itself and its relationship to the ancient world. And, the testimony of three witnesses who heard God declare that the translation was true. If one believes in divine revelation, the it is impossible to overlook these sources of information, however, critics of the Book of Mormon instead focus on a contradictory account from a hostile anti-Mormon.
|quote=
}}

==Response to claim: "it's prudent to examine whatever source documents that may exist for those translations...very few members are aware of Joseph's encounter with a Greek Psalter in 1842"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=However, since Joseph translated some other documents as well, it's prudent to examine whatever source documents that may exist for those translations. If it can be proved that Joseph translated other ancient documents correctly, when he would have no knowledge of how to do so, it would go a long way to help validate Joseph's ability as a seer and translator. Most LDS are of course familiar with the first three translations. And some LDS are somewhat familiar with the Kinderhook Plates but very, very few members are aware of Joseph's encounter with a Greek Psalter in 1842.
}}
{{misinformation|Joseph didn't ''translate'' the Greek Psalter. MormonThink's original title to this page was "The Greek Psalter Translation." At some point they apparently realized that there ''was'' not translation, and modified it to the "The Greek Psalter Incident." However, this paragraph still implies that something can be deduced about Joseph's translating ability by examining it. Additionaly, one would first have to ask if Joseph translated any additional documents in the same way as as he did scripture, through direct revelation. For example, Joseph studied Hebrew in the School of the Prophets using conventional scholarly techniques--his translations of Hebrew done in class might, then, only represent his intellectual or scholarly ability at the time, and not a divine ability to translate scripture.
|quote=
}}

==Response to claim: "Joseph...apparently knew Egyptian well enough to translate it"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Joseph of course translated the Book of Mormon from Reformed Egyptian and he also translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri so he apparently knew Egyptian well enough to translate it and professor Caswall wanted to see what he thought about this ancient Greek manuscript.
}}
{{misinformation|Joseph could not translate Egyptian or any variation of Egyptian without divine aid, so he did not "apparently" know Egyptian well enough to translate it. The Nephite authors insisted that their "reformed Egyptian" had been so altered over 1000 years of separation from the Old World that "none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof" ({{s||Mormon|9|34}}). Therefore, Joseph's ability to translate had nothing to do with "knowing a language," but was done (as he always insisted) "by the gift and power of God."  He was not a translator in the academic on intellectual sense. 
}}

==Response to claim: "Joseph examined the ancient document and replied that it was a Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Joseph examined the ancient document and replied that it was a Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Caswall knew Joseph was wrong as this was a known Greek Psalter and definitely not Egyptian.
}}
{{propaganda|Henry Caswall was a minister who deliberately set out to trap Joseph, and his is the only account we have of the incident.
}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph Smith misidentify a Greek "psalter" as a containing "reformed Egyptian" hieroglyphics?}}

==Response to claim: "Caswall's experience with Joseph Smith at Nauvoo on 18-19 April 1842 expresses the frustration of an increasing number of LDS students with Joseph's ability to translate ancient documents"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Henry Caswall's experience with Joseph Smith at Nauvoo on 18-19 April 1842 expresses the frustration of an increasing number of LDS students with Joseph's ability to translate ancient documents. Caswall was a visiting minister from England who was shown the Egyptian papyri. He decided to test Joseph's credibility by presenting him with a known, ancient Greek psalter for his examination.
}}
{{propaganda|No, it doesn't.  Caswall was a minister from another denomination who set out to trap Joseph (he tells us this). Then, when the chance comes to launch the trap, Caswall backpedals and won't let Joseph buy or borrow the book he claims he can translate. The Mormons were on to Caswall--it seems unlikely Joseph fell into his trap at all, but that didn't stop Caswall from writing about it later.

John Taylor said of Caswall's visit:
<blockquote>
Concerning Mr. Caswall, I was at Nauvoo during the time of his visit. He came for the purpose of looking for evil. He was a wicked man, and associated with reprobates, mobocrats, and murderers. It is, I suppose, true that he was reverend gentleman; but it has been no uncommon thing with us to witness associations of this kind, nor for reverend gentlemen; so called, to be found leading on mobs to deeds of plunder and death. I saw Mr. Caswall in the printing office at Nauvoo; he had with him an old manuscript, and professed to be anxious to know what it was. I looked at it, and told him that I believed it was a Greek manuscript. In his book, he states that it was a Greek Psalter; but that none of the Mormons told him what it was. Herein is a falsehood, for I told him. Yet these are the men and books that we are to have our evidence from.
</blockquote>

So, Caswell may well illustrate what MormonThink is doing, but it's not an image they'd probably want to be associated with.
}}

==Response to claim: "We regret that we could not find this issue discussed on the Church's official website"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=We regret that we could not find this issue discussed on the Church's official website. However we found several responses from LDS apologists and LDS leaders which we cite below. Per the Neal A. Maxwell Institute...
}}
{{propaganda|The Maxwell Institute is part of Brigham Young University and is sponsored by the Church.
|fallacy={{special pleading}}
MormonThink originally stated "We regret that we could not find this issue discussed in any church publication or web site." When FairMormon pointed out that the Neal A. Maxwell institute ''is'' sponsored by the Church, they modified the claim to be "We regret that we could not find this issue discussed on the Church's official website." That's called "moving the goalpost." 

MormonThink even mentions Nibley's paper. In fact, The following works published by Church presses all deal with the issue.  MormonThink does not know the data well, or chooses to ignore it, since they do not discuss the most important criticisms against Caswall's account.
*{{BYUS|author= Craig L. Foster|article=[https://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=6344 Henry Caswall: Anti-Mormon Extraordinaire]|date=1995-96|vol=35|num=4|start=144|end=159}}
*{{Book:Widtose:Joseph Smith Seeker After Truth|pages=91ff}}
*{{Book:Nibley:Tinkling Cymbals and Sounding Brass|pages=[http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=77&chapid=969 304-401]}} {{nb}}
*{{Book:Nibley:Since Cumorah|article=[http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=74&chapid=909 . . . There Can Be No More Bible.]}} 
*{{FR-15-2-15}} 
}}

==Response to claim: "Critic's response. We support professor Caswall's response to Joseph's error"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Critic's response. We support professor Caswall's response to Joseph's error: "Whether he spoke as a prophet or as a mere man, he has committed himself, for he has said what is not true. If he spoke as a prophet, therefore, he is a false prophet. If he spoke as a mere man, he cannot be trusted, for he spoke positively and like an oracle respecting that which he knew nothing."
When Joseph speaks and leads others to assume he is speaking as a prophet then he needs to be accountable for what he says. It's very convenient to say Joseph speaks as a man whenever he's proved wrong and as a prophet whenever his statements can't be proven right or wrong or haven't been proven one way or the other yet.
}}
{{propaganda|Well of ''course'' the critics support Caswall's response. Yet, what evidence is there that Joseph said ''anything'' problematic about the Psalter?  Caswall had the chance (in his version telling of the story) for Joseph to take the Psalter and produce a translation.  Caswall steadfastly refused, even when (in his telling) the gullible enthusiastic Mormons promised him money to buy it or act as security. Caswell has Joseph right where he wants him--and then let's him get away and we're left with just his word. Caswell probably realized how implausible this looked, since he changed his story the next time he published it.
}}

==Response to claim: "Joseph Smith did the exact same thing with the Greek Psalter that he did with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook Plates"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Joseph Smith did the exact same thing with the Greek Psalter that he did with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook Plates. He saw an ancient document, one that he assumed no one in the world could translate and he said that he could translate it and he said what it was. And he was just as wrong with the Greek Psalter as he was with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook plates.
}}
{{disinformation|Joseph never produced a translation of the Greek Psalter, so how it is that he "did the exact same thing" as he did with the Book of Abraham or Kinderhook Plates? We repeat: if Joseph ''truly said this'', then why didn't Caswell give him the book or sell him the book so Joseph could do publicly and in print what Caswell claimed Joseph wanted to do? The story doesn't hang together.  Think about it.
}}

==Response to claim: "it seems likely that the event probably happened pretty much as Caswall related"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Professor Caswall likely exaggerated and perhaps embellished some details like Joseph's grammar to make Joseph seem even more ignorant but based on the above it seems likely that the event probably happened pretty much as Caswall related.
}}
{{propaganda|Well ''of course'' the critics believe Caswall's story, and they state that Caswall "exaggerated" and "perhaps embellished" details, but he is considered credible nonetheless! MormonThink does not examine or address the evidence at all--they just assume that Caswell must have told the truth. Here's the problem, though: Caswell left two versions of the story, and ''they don't match''.  So, he was not telling the truth in at least part of a least one statement. And, so they admit that Caswell exaggerated and embellished (i.e., he lied) about some things, why ought we to trust him about the thing that matters?
}}

==Response to claim: "If this was the only translation issue that was damaging to the prophet then we would dismiss it"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=If this was the only translation issue that was damaging to the prophet then we would dismiss it as it wasn't really a translation even if Joseph was in error as to the identification of the document. However, given the more substantial translation problems identified by critics with the Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible, the Greek Psalter incident needs to be scrutinized as well to look for any evidence that Joseph was really an accurate seer and translator.
}}
{{propaganda|So if this was the ''only'' event, then the critics would ignore it as not providing useful data based upon the lack of evidence. However, because there are other translation events, they ''won't'' ignore it, because it somehow now provides useful data.

Right.
}}

==Response to claim: "if he really translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri then he would know what Egyptian characters are"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=If Joseph really translated the Book of Mormon from reformed Egyptian characters and if he really translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri then he would know what Egyptian characters are and what they meant. Some defenders of the faith have said that some Greek characters are similar in appearance to some Egyptian Hieroglyphics. That may be true (we haven't studied this to validate this claim). However, since Joseph translated two whole books (over 500 pages) from reformed Egyptian and ancient Egyptian characters, he would have known that the Greek writings were not a Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics. His failure to recognize this casts doubt on his ability to translate ancient Egyptian or reformed Egyptian characters.  
}}
{{propaganda|The reformed Egyptian was altered and not like any other written language, according to Moroni ({{s||Mormon|9|34}}). Why would Joseph necessarily know what Egyptian characters are and what they meant?  He was not an academic translator, studying the text and symbols and developing meaning--he was receiving translation by revelation. No one argues that Joseph worked like a regular translator when he produced scripture such as the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, or the revision of the Bible (JST).  MormonThink is clouding the issue.
}}

==Response to claim: "Although the Greek Psalter incident is the translation effort with the least amount of significance, it further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=Although the Greek Psalter incident is the translation effort with the least amount of significance, it further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer. It's hard for many of us, that have analyzed the accounts of all of the ancient writings that Joseph claimed to have translated, to accept the fact that all of Joseph's translations, that can be proven as accurate, have all been proven to be incorrect. If nothing else, it was another opportunity for Joseph to prove himself to be a seer but he did not.
}}
{{propaganda|How did Joseph "not prove himself"? He didn't translate anything. Caswell claimed that Joseph identified the Greek letters as something else--yet, by this point Joseph had studied Greek academically.  The first thing you study is the alphabet.  Caswell's claim doesn't wash. Joseph provided no translation of the Psalter. Caswell had a chance to get Joseph to commit himself to a translation, but refused to let Joseph take the book to translate: which was supposedly the whole reason he came to Nauvoo!  Joseph walked right into the trap, and then Caswell essentially ran away. This is utterly implausible and shows Caswell to be lying, just as he lied about Joseph's language and manner of speech. Furthermore, other witnesses reported that ''they'' told Caswell the characters were Greek--so, even if Joseph didn't know, he had friends who would have tipped him off.

John Taylor:
<blockquote>
Concerning Mr. Caswall, I was at Nauvoo during the time of his visit. He came for the purpose of looking for evil. He was a wicked man, and associated with reprobates, mobocrats, and murderers. It is, I suppose, true that he was reverend gentleman; but it has been no uncommon thing with us to witness associations of this kind, nor for reverend gentlemen; so called, to be found leading on mobs to deeds of plunder and death. I saw Mr. Caswall in the printing office at Nauvoo; he had with him an old manuscript, and professed to be anxious to know what it was. I looked at it, and told him that I believed it was a Greek manuscript. In his book, he states that it was a Greek Psalter; but that none of the Mormons told him what it was. Herein is a falsehood, for I told him. Yet these are the men and books that we are to have our evidence from.<ref>[John Taylor,] "Three Nights: A Public Discussion between the Revds. C. W. Cleeve, James Robertson, and Philip Cater, and Elder John Taylor of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, at Boulogne-Sur-Mer, France" (Liverpool: John Taylor, 1850), 5.</ref>
</blockquote>
}}

==Response to claim: "There is a difference between an isolated incident and a pattern"==
{{IndexClaimItemShort
|title=MormonThink
|claim=There is a difference between an isolated incident and a pattern. The Greek Psalter, Book of Abraham, Kinderhook Plates, the Anthon Manuscript, and some would add the Book of Mormon (DNA evidence, anachronisms, lack of archaeological, anthropological, cultural, linguistic, and metallurgical evidence to support claims), reveal a disturbing pattern in Joseph Smith's methods and perhaps his character.
}}
{{propaganda|One must first ''demonstrate'' a pattern before making sweeping claims about it. Notice the effort to sneak in a ''huge'' area of discussion on the [[Book_of_Mormon|Book of Mormon]] and [[Book_of_Abraham|Book of Abraham]]&mdash;we won't handle those here, though there are lots of resources on these issues. The Greek Psalter episode does, however, reveal a "disturbing pattern" with MormonThink, and perhaps their character. They ignore data that does not fit their theory, and generally don't even mention it. They act as if things are proved when they have not proved them.  And, they repeat the same charges over and over again.
}}

{{endnotes sources}}