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Difference between revisions of "Book of Mormon/Geography/Models/Limited/Goble-May 2002"
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* Edwin G. Goble and Wayne N. May, ''This Land, Zarahemla and the Nephite Nation: Only One Cumorah'' (Colfax, WI: Ancient American Archaeology Foundation, 2002). ISBN 0970398514. | * Edwin G. Goble and Wayne N. May, ''This Land, Zarahemla and the Nephite Nation: Only One Cumorah'' (Colfax, WI: Ancient American Archaeology Foundation, 2002). ISBN 0970398514. | ||
| − | * Note that while Wayne May continues to publish this book, Ed Goble has disclaimed the geography, and has not profited from the work since 2002.{{ | + | * Note that while Wayne May continues to publish this book, Ed Goble has disclaimed the geography, and has not profited from the work since 2002.<ref>Ed Goble, comment on FAIR blog, (18 Sept 2008, 8h24) {{link|url=http://www.fairblog.org/2008/09/03/examining-the-secular-side/#comment-6367}}</ref> He also disclaims the use of the fraudulent Soper-Savage (also called the "[[Book of Mormon geography/Michigan artifacts|Michigan artifacts]]") and [[Book of Mormon geography/Burrows Cave artifacts|Burrows Cave]] "artifacts."<ref>Ed Goble, comment on FAIR blog, (5 Sept 2008, 20h22) {{link|url=http://www.fairblog.org/2008/09/03/examining-the-secular-side/#comment-5404}}</ref> |
===Plagiarism?=== | ===Plagiarism?=== | ||
| − | Goble has also charged that Rod Meldrum ("[[Book_of_Mormon_geography/Models/Limited/Meldrum_2003|Heartland model]]," "The FIRM Foundation") plagiarized elements from his geography without attribution.{{ | + | Goble has also charged that Rod Meldrum ("[[Book_of_Mormon_geography/Models/Limited/Meldrum_2003|Heartland model]]," "The FIRM Foundation") plagiarized elements from his geography without attribution.<ref>Ed Goble, comment on FAIR blog, (5 Sept 2008, 20h22) {{link|url=http://www.fairblog.org/2008/09/03/examining-the-secular-side/#comment-5404}}</ref> |
[[Image:Circle the Michigan artifacts.png|right|frame|Conclusion of DVD uses the Michigan relics as evidence. The DVD elsewhere refers to these artifacts as "a person on a cross" which makes their identity clear ({{DVD:Meldrum:2007|section=14|time=7:56}}) For more details, see subheading "Michigan Relics as Evidence," in {{FAIR:Reviews of DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography:Identifying the Nephites}}.]] | [[Image:Circle the Michigan artifacts.png|right|frame|Conclusion of DVD uses the Michigan relics as evidence. The DVD elsewhere refers to these artifacts as "a person on a cross" which makes their identity clear ({{DVD:Meldrum:2007|section=14|time=7:56}}) For more details, see subheading "Michigan Relics as Evidence," in {{FAIR:Reviews of DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography:Identifying the Nephites}}.]] | ||
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The head of the FIRM Foundation replied: | The head of the FIRM Foundation replied: | ||
| − | :''“Seek first to understand, then to be understood” would be a good idea for this last post. You have obviously not seen Meldrum’s DVD as he has no Michigan artifacts in it and he came to his DNA conclusions long before encountering Wayne May.''{{ | + | :''“Seek first to understand, then to be understood” would be a good idea for this last post. You have obviously not seen Meldrum’s DVD as he has no Michigan artifacts in it and he came to his DNA conclusions long before encountering Wayne May.''<ref>DNA Truthseeker [Rod Meldrum], MADB message board post (12 May 2008, 2h11) {{link|url=http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?s=e910b125dec2ff3fb142c3d599a7f495&showtopic=35020&st=20&p=1208425876&#entry1208425876}}</ref> |
The former claim is false, since the Michigan forgeries are in the presentation (see screenshot image) | The former claim is false, since the Michigan forgeries are in the presentation (see screenshot image) | ||
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The head of the FIRM Foundation later told Goble: | The head of the FIRM Foundation later told Goble: | ||
| − | :''This geography was not plagerized [sic] from you at all, as you so indicated in your rant. You called ALL of the Great Lakes ‘Sea West’, you claim the ‘Nephite North’ is a highly skewed angle nearly making Lake Ontario and Lake Erie north/south of each other (see p.75 of your book) which completely changes your geographic ideas. I do not espouse either of these arguements. If you had seen the DVD, you would have known that out geographies are substantially different, if not unrelated. Your unsubstantiated claim that I copied your geography is not true. I began to research North American geographies after I had worked on the DNA evidence. I had come to many preliminary conclusions prior to my meeting Wayne May. I found his geographic ideas were the closest to what I had found, and so went to one of his presentations to learn more. Again I am being accused without evidence in fact. I agree with you, your geography doesn’t work and I don’t blame you for abandoning it. The proposed geography of my DVD has many things that need to be addressed as well, and I am hoping for competent help in establishing a more complete understanding.''{{ | + | :''This geography was not plagerized [sic] from you at all, as you so indicated in your rant. You called ALL of the Great Lakes ‘Sea West’, you claim the ‘Nephite North’ is a highly skewed angle nearly making Lake Ontario and Lake Erie north/south of each other (see p.75 of your book) which completely changes your geographic ideas. I do not espouse either of these arguements. If you had seen the DVD, you would have known that out geographies are substantially different, if not unrelated. Your unsubstantiated claim that I copied your geography is not true. I began to research North American geographies after I had worked on the DNA evidence. I had come to many preliminary conclusions prior to my meeting Wayne May. I found his geographic ideas were the closest to what I had found, and so went to one of his presentations to learn more. Again I am being accused without evidence in fact. I agree with you, your geography doesn’t work and I don’t blame you for abandoning it. The proposed geography of my DVD has many things that need to be addressed as well, and I am hoping for competent help in establishing a more complete understanding.''<ref>Rod Meldrum, comment on FAIR blog, (8 Sept 2008, 19h24) {{link|url=http://www.fairblog.org/2008/09/03/examining-the-secular-side/#comment-5609}}</ref> |
It has, however, been pointed out that Meldrum's enthusiasm for Goble's book was much greater than his statements might lead us to believe, from a testimonial posted on Wayne May's website: | It has, however, been pointed out that Meldrum's enthusiasm for Goble's book was much greater than his statements might lead us to believe, from a testimonial posted on Wayne May's website: | ||
| − | :“Wayne May’s book series provides the '''most comprehensive compilation of Book of Mormon'' background history, ''geography'', logical research, and artifacts (complete with photographs), of any book on the subject to date….Open your mind and heart to the information contained in these books, and you will gain a renewed love for the prophet and the Book of Mormon itself. Truth will prevail.”{{ | + | :“Wayne May’s book series provides the '''most comprehensive compilation of Book of Mormon'' background history, ''geography'', logical research, and artifacts (complete with photographs), of any book on the subject to date….Open your mind and heart to the information contained in these books, and you will gain a renewed love for the prophet and the Book of Mormon itself. Truth will prevail.”<ref>Rod Meldrum, (date?) {{link|url=http://www.hillcumorahhistory.com/bookofmormon-history-immeds.html}}</ref> |
Goble has pointed out that one of his ideas is quite unique, and matches the Heartland model's claim: | Goble has pointed out that one of his ideas is quite unique, and matches the Heartland model's claim: | ||
| − | :“The idea of a confluence of rivers making up the head of the Sidon is lifted from MY book, Mr. Meldrum. That was MY idea.”{{ | + | :“The idea of a confluence of rivers making up the head of the Sidon is lifted from MY book, Mr. Meldrum. That was MY idea.”<ref>Ed Goble, comment on FAIR blog, (5 Sept 2008, 20h22) {{link|url=http://www.fairblog.org/2008/09/03/examining-the-secular-side/#comment-5404}}</ref> |
| − | This can be compared with The FIRM Foundation's identical idea.{{ | + | This can be compared with The FIRM Foundation's identical idea.<ref>"The Book of Mormon index indicates the Sidon River flows north into a sea, is this correct?," FAQ, ''bookofmormonevidence.org'' (accessed 9 April 2009) {{link|url=http://www.bookofmormonevidence.org/FAQ.php}}</ref> |
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[[fr:Book of Mormon/Geography/Models/Limited/Goble-May 2002]] | [[fr:Book of Mormon/Geography/Models/Limited/Goble-May 2002]] | ||
Revision as of 18:20, 31 May 2014
FAIR Answers—back to home page
| Model Name | Date Proposed | Scope | Narrow Neck | Land North | Land South | Cumorah | River Sidon | Nephi's Landing | Religion | Type of model
Model name: Goble-May 2002Date proposed: 2002 |
|---|
- Edwin G. Goble and Wayne N. May, This Land, Zarahemla and the Nephite Nation: Only One Cumorah (Colfax, WI: Ancient American Archaeology Foundation, 2002). ISBN 0970398514.
- Note that while Wayne May continues to publish this book, Ed Goble has disclaimed the geography, and has not profited from the work since 2002.[1] He also disclaims the use of the fraudulent Soper-Savage (also called the "Michigan artifacts") and Burrows Cave "artifacts."[2]
Plagiarism?
Goble has also charged that Rod Meldrum ("Heartland model," "The FIRM Foundation") plagiarized elements from his geography without attribution.[3]
Conclusion of DVD uses the Michigan relics as evidence. The DVD elsewhere refers to these artifacts as "a person on a cross" which makes their identity clear (Meldrum, DVD (2007), Sect #14, 7:56.) For more details, see subheading "Michigan Relics as Evidence," in FAIR:Reviews of DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography:Identifying the Nephites.
The head of the FIRM Foundation replied:
- “Seek first to understand, then to be understood” would be a good idea for this last post. You have obviously not seen Meldrum’s DVD as he has no Michigan artifacts in it and he came to his DNA conclusions long before encountering Wayne May.[4]
The former claim is false, since the Michigan forgeries are in the presentation (see screenshot image)
The head of the FIRM Foundation later told Goble:
- This geography was not plagerized [sic] from you at all, as you so indicated in your rant. You called ALL of the Great Lakes ‘Sea West’, you claim the ‘Nephite North’ is a highly skewed angle nearly making Lake Ontario and Lake Erie north/south of each other (see p.75 of your book) which completely changes your geographic ideas. I do not espouse either of these arguements. If you had seen the DVD, you would have known that out geographies are substantially different, if not unrelated. Your unsubstantiated claim that I copied your geography is not true. I began to research North American geographies after I had worked on the DNA evidence. I had come to many preliminary conclusions prior to my meeting Wayne May. I found his geographic ideas were the closest to what I had found, and so went to one of his presentations to learn more. Again I am being accused without evidence in fact. I agree with you, your geography doesn’t work and I don’t blame you for abandoning it. The proposed geography of my DVD has many things that need to be addressed as well, and I am hoping for competent help in establishing a more complete understanding.[5]
It has, however, been pointed out that Meldrum's enthusiasm for Goble's book was much greater than his statements might lead us to believe, from a testimonial posted on Wayne May's website:
- “Wayne May’s book series provides the 'most comprehensive compilation of Book of Mormon background history, geography, logical research, and artifacts (complete with photographs), of any book on the subject to date….Open your mind and heart to the information contained in these books, and you will gain a renewed love for the prophet and the Book of Mormon itself. Truth will prevail.”[6]
Goble has pointed out that one of his ideas is quite unique, and matches the Heartland model's claim:
- “The idea of a confluence of rivers making up the head of the Sidon is lifted from MY book, Mr. Meldrum. That was MY idea.”[7]
This can be compared with The FIRM Foundation's identical idea.[8]
Notes
- ↑ Ed Goble, comment on FAIR blog, (18 Sept 2008, 8h24) off-site
- ↑ Ed Goble, comment on FAIR blog, (5 Sept 2008, 20h22) off-site
- ↑ Ed Goble, comment on FAIR blog, (5 Sept 2008, 20h22) off-site
- ↑ DNA Truthseeker [Rod Meldrum], MADB message board post (12 May 2008, 2h11) off-site
- ↑ Rod Meldrum, comment on FAIR blog, (8 Sept 2008, 19h24) off-site
- ↑ Rod Meldrum, (date?) off-site
- ↑ Ed Goble, comment on FAIR blog, (5 Sept 2008, 20h22) off-site
- ↑ "The Book of Mormon index indicates the Sidon River flows north into a sea, is this correct?," FAQ, bookofmormonevidence.org (accessed 9 April 2009) off-site