I have been thinking how better to introduce the members of the Church to the issues surrounding church history and Masonry. One of the biggest issues here is that most Latter-days Saints know next to nothing about the subject and neither do their leaders.
One of the ideas is to restore the third floor lodge room of the the Masonic lodge building in Nauvoo to the way it would have appeared in Joseph Smith’s day. To that end I have been in contact with the Grand Lodge of Illinois who have told me that there are several sets of lodge furnishings, alters podiums, columns, candle holders and other such items from lodges that have closed in the area which could be made available to restore the lodge room.
- 1. It restores the room as it would have appeared in the 1840’s. Which give us the opportunity to discuss Freemasonry and it role in the Nauvoo community of the period.
- 2. It provides a gentle way to introduce and deal with the subject of Freemasonry’s role in Church history. Members would at least have the opportunity to see what a lodge room looks like what is similar and what is different from the temple. In this way when the topic of Masonry come up it is not a complete unknown.
- 3. It extends the hand of fellowship to communities in the Nauvoo area and give them a role in the restoration of Nauvoo.
- 4. It counters the idea that we are somehow hiding part of our past.
- 5. It provides good publicity both to Nauvoo Restoration, Inc. and to the Grand Lodge of Illinois
Diagram of possible layout of lodge room
Please feel free to share your comments with me at [email protected].
I’ve actually performed some close inspection of the lodge room floor, which is the only original part. For those who know what they’re looking for, the wear marks make it plain exactly where the altar sat, as well as the officers’ diases. I also happen to have a copy of the most detailed description of the lodge room, which was utterly ignored in the “restoration.”
The greater challenge would come from the structural guesswork performed in the earlier “restoration” of the third floor. Those who worked on the project clearly had no concept of how a lodge is generally constructed. The preparation rooms are missing entirely, leaving an elevated “balcony” that the tour guides assume was built for musicians to use during supposed dances on the third floor.
In any case, historians are having limited success even getting the LDS church to refer to the building as a masonic hall, rather than the tremendously anachronistic “cultural hall.” I would be quite surprised to see any legitimate restoration of the lodge room.
I would also note, Greg, that the spare furnishings in the possession of the Grand Lodge of Illinois are not at all likely to date from the 1840s. As an Illinois mason, I can tell you to begin with that masonic altars in Illinois are considerably larger than the one that sat in the Nauvoo Lodge room. Also, Illinois lodges almost exclusively use a single traid light fixture, rather than three free-standing candles. The latter, of course, was the norm in the 1840s.
Nick;
While it is true that we would not likely be getting period furnishing it is also true that the furnishing we would be getting would be far more representative of the room as it existed in 1843 than what is there now, which is nothing. We would need to recreate some items such as the candle holders as you mentioned.
I agree that the descriptions of the room being used for dances and such is almost comical to anyone familiar with the room’s true use. I find the reference to the building being the “Cultural Hall” also amusing as Joseph and his contemporaries would not have known it as such.
I have assumed that the preparation room was where the new fire stairs now are located. Do you have different information? I have a set of blueprints for the building which I would be happy to share. Could you send along your period descriptions.
While it is true that we would not likely be getting period furnishing it is also true that the furnishing we would be getting would be far more representative of the room as it existed in 1843 than what is there now, with is nothing.
Yes, non-period lodge furniture would be better than nothing. I’m just saying that in some respects, more recent items would interfere. A more modern Illinois masonic altar, for example, would literally take up 2 to 3 times the floor space of a period altar, and those familiar with the room know that would make a big difference. It would also likely obscure the floor’s wear marks, where you can literally see the impact of hundreds of Mormon masons who knelt there to take their obligations—something that I think would be quite sad. There were additional features to the room which were common then (especially in European lodges), but are almost never seen today. It was truly a grand spectacle of a lodge room.
For what it’s worth, at least one of the missionaries there told me of a non-LDS visitor who was truly angry that there was no lodge furniture in the room. The missionary, as you can imagine, didn’t know what he meant by “lodge furniture.”
I agree that the descriptions of the room being used for dances is almost comical to anyone familiar with the rooms true use.
Yes, and some of the missionaries can get quite lyrical about describing what it “must have been like” to see Joseph and Emma whirling across that floor—ugh.
I have assumed that the preparation room was where the new fire stairs now are located. Do you have different information?
Actually, no. The lodge was somewhat unique for its time in having a “man lift” in that corner. While that sounds like an elevator for persons, it appears to have been more for the purpose of moving equipment and supplies.
As the room now appears, the alleged “musicians’ balcony” extends several feet into the west end of the room space, with no supports beneath it. Early descriptions show that the “balcony” was part of a two-story set of preparation rooms—a very unusual feature, but one that makes sense when you consider the volume of masonic work being carried out there. Therefore, the western wall of the lodge room proper came fully down to the floor there. My examination of the flooring bears this out. First, you can see that the floor planks under the balcony modification are not original, but replacements. Second, you can see on the remaining original planks that the Senior Warden’s dias extended from a wall at that point, and the wear marks are exactly where you would expect them to be from candidates standing before the Senior Warden.
I have a set of blueprints for the building which I would be happy to share. Could you send along your period descriptions.
I’ve seen one set of blueprints before, which appeared to be modern ones from the Nauvoo Restoration Inc., project. Are you referring to those, or to early/originals? (Either way, I don’t have a copy, so I’d like to get them.) I’d be happy to share my early description. Shoot me an e-mail, and we can exchange addresses.
The only thing I fear is the senior missionaries attempting to explain the lodge furniture….
Point well taken, Ben. The site missionaries almost always stay to the script they are given. With the help of a good Mason, I’m sure NRI could come up with wording that emphasized the positive character traits that these men obligated themselves to develop and exercise, not to mention the religious context of the furniture itself, which is quite compatible with Mormonism.
Greg,
This is a wonderful project. I am really impressed with your determination to be historically accurate and at the same time reaching out to others for assistance.
I have never been to Nauvoo, but I have been to Kirtland and one of the things that I was over come by is the detail by both the CofC and LDS. Sounds like your are trying to continue this high standard. Thank you from one who loves our history.
Connecticut Mason here with many LDS friends. I would think that the Grand Lodge of Illinois would be enthusiastic about the prospect. Most lodges now open for tours and encourage vistors to tour.
The general layout of lodge rooms has not changed substantially in centuries but, of course, depending on the location of the lodge, and the wealth of the members, some are more elaborate than others. While there certainly are lodge furnishings dating from the 19th century they can be hard to come by.
A musicians gallery would have been unheard of, although you will find Masons writing to encourage the use of music as early as the 1830’s as it is one of the seven liberal arts so important to Masonry. By the 1840’s lodges that could afford pipe organs were being encouraged to buy them.
A tour of similarly sized lodges from this period or earlier (quite a number of which exist, but I don’t know about in Illinois) togeather with blue prints would give an excellent idea of what the lodge was like.
Quite a bit of lodge regalia is also available if you search around.
You could have quite an exhibit.
I know nothing of the politics within the LDS of Masonry. I know that there were severe problems between Mormons and Masons in Utah for quite a long time. But I also know quite a number of fine Mormon Masons whom I count as good friends and brothers.
Good Luck!
I have offered to write the script and provide the training need. I’m sure I can recruit other to help as well as needed. I have a diagram of what we are thinking of but the server is not accepting images right now.
I did need to assure the Grand Lodge that under no condition would we ever reenact rituals of any kind. This is only attempting to show the room as it would have existed in Joseph’s day just as is done in other parts of Nauvoo.
If the Nauvoo Lodge room was restored to something approaching its original grandeur (it was, after all, acclaimed as one of the finest in the nation), the Grand Lodge of Illinois might wish to consider the example set by Colonial Williamsburg. At Williamsburg, a period lodge has been recreated, and period rituals (as opposed to modern) are reenacted by the lodge on a monthly basis. This reenactment, of course, is open to Masons, not the general public.
Of course, considering that the Grand Lodge of Illinois did not establish a uniform ritual until 1906, there is some difficulty in establishing what form the Nauvoo Lodge used. Given that the majority of Mormons who had already been Masons (including WM Hyrum Smith) came from New York and Vermont, and the lodge received training from the Past Grand Master of Vermont, the likelihood is strong that the Nauvoo Lodge followed essentially pre-Morgan (early 1820s) New York and Vermont ritual.
Hey, Greg,
I thought you would just like to know, that any change to Nauvoo not only has to go through the NRI secretary, the NRI president, the Missionary Department, the Physical Facilities Department, the Family and Church History Department, and the Temple Department (yes, they have say on the Flats as well), occasionally (as would be required for this project) the Correlation Department, but it also MUST go through the First Presidency. That is, once it gets through all of the others. So, good luck with that.
And while I personally think it is a worthy cause, I would like to give you the responses that you will get in your above items:
1. It restores the room as it would have appeared in the 1840’s. Which give us the opportunity to discuss Freemasonry and it role in the Nauvoo community of the period.
A. They don’t want to discuss Freemasonry’s role in the Nauvoo community of the period. They know less about the Church’s Masonic history than they do polygamy, and they CERTAINLY aren’t going to talk about that.
2. It provides a gentle way to introduce and deal with the subject of Freemasonry’s role in Church history. Members would at least have the opportunity to see what a lodge room looks like what is similar and what is different from the temple. In this way when the topic of Masonry come up it is not a complete unknown.
A. A more gentle way would be to give the building back its name: “The Masonic Hall.” That would cost considerably less, and would bring up the topic. However, they don’t want to bring up the topic. Masons are weird. They are a pseudo-religious cult. Why on earth would the Church, which is struggling so very hard to be identified as a “Christian” church by the Evangelical community, suddenly want to align itself with another cult?
3. It extends the hand of fellowship to communities in the Nauvoo area and give them a role in the restoration of Nauvoo.
A. The local communities don’t give a “fudge.” The local communities are struggling to keep their schools open or consolidate them all together. Carthage is struggling under high property taxes. Hamilton is struggling with whether or not to build a new senior center to replace the one that is crumbling. Warsaw would never be invited anyway. Keokuk is having factories close and go overseas. Fort Madison is trying to get a new state penitentiary built.
4. It counters the idea that we are somehow hiding part of our past.
A. NRI doesn’t care about whether it’s accused of hiding things. That’s their business. The properties are run by Physical Facilities—what do they care? The Family and Church History Department is barely listened to, and thus have to pick their battles carefully. The Temple Department doesn’t want competition. And the Missionary Department, which, coincidentally handles the missionary staff, doesn’t want anything to do with the Masonic cult. If they aren’t mentioned in the Discussions, they sure as heck aren’t going to be mentioned on tour.
5. It provides good publicity both to Nauvoo Restoration, Inc. and to the Grand Lodge of Illinois
A. Good publicity for the Grand Lodge, yes. Good publicity for NRI and/or the Church, no. Masons are a cult; a secretive, ritualistic CULT. Any linking of the Church with Freemasonry only strengthens the Evangelical argument that the Church is a cult.
“A. Good publicity for the Grand Lodge, yes. Good publicity for NRI and/or the Church, no. Masons are a cult; a secretive, ritualistic CULT. Any linking of the Church with Freemasonry only strengthens the Evangelical argument that the Church is a cult.”
I rest my case as to why this is needed.
The facts of the matter is that members and non-members are going to encounter the issue of Masonry with in the church. I deal with troubled members every week about this. We can not hide the facts nor should we. We are not here to debate Masonry and trowing pejoratives about isn’t really very helpful. The facts are clear that room was a Masonic lodge room. It was built for that reason. Pretending that it was something else makes us look silly.
Greg Kearney
“A. Good publicity for the Grand Lodge, yes. Good publicity for NRI and/or the Church, no. Masons are a cult; a secretive, ritualistic CULT. Any linking of the Church with Freemasonry only strengthens the Evangelical argument that the Church is a cult.”
Wow. Just wow. I see no difference between your statement and the statements anti-Mormons throw at us. That is the kind of spirit that causes hostility.
Greg, I think you missed that Joseph was making somewhat sarcastic reference to what some non-Masons think (erroneously, of course) about the Fraternity. Joseph Johnstun is a brother, whom I personally introduced into the lodge.
He has a point, in the sense that many LDS leaders are quite nervous about how others would perceive the high level of involvement that early Mormons had with Freemasonry. Many of the non-LDS visiting Nauvoo do, indeed, follow evangelical fearmongering in thinking that Freemasonry is a “satanic cult.” I’ve even seen faithful LDS members make the same claim, as I’m sure you have also seen.
The facts are clear that room was a Masonic lodge room. It was built for that reason. Pretending that it was something else makes us look silly.
Amen to that, Greg. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees. Historian Stan Kimball, shortly before his passing, told the following story:
“Then there was Mark E. Peterson. One time we were in Nauvoo near the Masonic Hall. It had a big sign out in front, ‘Cultural Hall.’ And I started my usual grumping about it. ‘Why don’t we call it what it is? What’s this
Cultural Hall? It’s not a Cultural Hall, it’s the Masonic Hall.’ Brother Mark E. Peterson took exception to that and he said one thing and another. ‘Why do historians have to tell everything? What’s this mania you have for telling
everything?’ I said, ‘Brother Peterson, you can’t bottle up truth. Now, would you rather have responsible Mormon historians answer the critics, or should we just abandon the field and let the anti-Mormons run all over it?’ Well,
somehow the conversation drifted off and that was the end of that. But anyway,I thought I’d made a point.”
Sadly, I think I missed his sarcastic tone as well. But I do think that thoughts like that (which are held by many) do make it necessary for further inoculation.
Brother Kearney
I’ve lived over forty years within 200 miles of Nauvoo(including 12 years in Quincy). I currently live in Champaign, IL and lived for 5 years in Springfield, IL.
So I believe I have some knowledge of feelings in this area. You might be surprised at the animosity still felt towards the Mormons by residents of the area and especially by Masons in the area.
A Mason friend in Quincy shared with me their official early history of the area in which there was nothing good spoken of the Mormons. Quincy had the largest Masonic Lodge in western Illinois until the Nauvoo Lodge went from 0 to 60 in nothing flat. Joseph was raised from non Mason to a 32nd degree in two days. Others nearly as fast. That caused a tremendous amount of opposition from fellow Masons.
I am not linked with the Masons, but still I inquired why the building was not called by its proper name when restored. Then Director of Nauvoo Restoration, Inc., Dr. LeRoy Kimball (Spencer’s cousin) told me in no uncertain terms that the church wanted nothing to do with the Masons. Like Bro. Litersky I have been many times in the third floor room and have seen the outlines of the earlier Masonic constructions. I agree that the “lift” was probably a dumb waiter while the west area does appear to have contained a two level set of rooms (for dressing, etc. I would assume).
I believe Bro Johnstun’s comments are being realistic not oppositional. I don’t believe you will ever convince anyone up the line from NRI to the First Presidency to make your very logical suggested “improvements.” So if you ever want to see them take place, forget about all of those underlings and go straight to the top. Then you will only have to be turned down once.
Andre Mostert
Is anyone else troubled by the fact that we are discussing a restoration of Nauvoo Lodge on a Mormon apologetic website? This is worrisome to me (as are some of Brother Kearney’s apologetic remarks regarding the relationship between Mormonism and Freemasonry, for that matter).
I’m with Nick and Joe Johnstun on this one. And, I’m afraid of the motives behind such a Lodge reconstruction. For, it isn’t just “Latter-days Saints [and their leaders] who know next to nothing about Freemasonry” that concern me. I’m even more concerned about a few Mormon-Freemasons who are more interested in good Mormon press than the facts of shared Mormon and Masonic history, and who are –like Gil Scharffs– willing to make a Masonic dollar look like a nickel. I wonder what would inspire any Latter-day Saint to do such a thing?
Well, now that Nick spilled the beans, I guess I will ‘fess up. Yes, I am a Mason, and I have a bit of experience as to how things run with NRI.
In addition to my previous comments, there are two additional things that you need to keep in mind as you work on this project. The first is that Historic Nauvoo is there to promote the Church. You cannot approach this as “telling the truth about why it is there,” because that is not what Historic Nauvoo is about. Historic Nauvoo is about the message. It is a missionary tool, not a history lesson. Therefore, things that are off-message are quickly off script. (Likewise, if it is on-message but not historically accurate, it will still make the script.) If you want something like this to come to pass, you will have to figure out a legitimate way to make it on-message. It cannot be answering anti claims. It has to be a positive promotion of the restored church.
The second thing to keep in mind is that with the completion of the landscaping of the Carthage Jail and Visitors’ Center in 1989, the Church declared that the “restoration” of Nauvoo was complete. They are not going to restore/rebuild any more buildings, except as required for missionary housing, and those are neither restorations nor reconstructions. The only way the Temple was rebuilt was with a massive contribution specifically for that purpose, and it was on message. So, once you figure out how to get the Masonic history of the Church on message, you need to come up with the entire funding for the project and a lot of publicity to go with it.
A couple of things, “Joseph was raised from non Mason to a 32nd degree in two days.” This is not the case Joseph was raised upon sight to a Master Mason, also called the 3rd degree. The Scottish Rite, in which we find the so called “32nd degree”, did not exist in Illinois at the time. This kind of statement is indicative of the problems we are trying to solve here. There are so many mistaken beliefs about the Church its history and Freemasonry. Church Members and non-Members alike make these kind of errors all the time.
As for funding, I believe we have that part handled. We need to secure the permission of Nauvoo Restoration, Inc. to place the furnishings in the room. We are not talking about making any changes to the building itself only adding the furnishing that would have existed in it at the time.
We need to secure the permission of Nauvoo Restoration, Inc. to place the furnishings in the room. We are not talking about making any changes to the building itself only adding the furnishing that would have existed in it at the time.
Greg, believe me when I tell you that “adding the furnishings that would have existed” in the Nauvoo Lodge room “at the time” actually would require structural renovations. Sheer guesswork was employed, not only with regard to the impromptu, inaccurate balcony, but with other features of the room as well.
But I’m willing to live with the balcony, for now anyway. It’s going to be a big enough challenge to get the furnishings in the room and get them to admit it was a lodge room and not a dance hall. Adding structural changes to the project will just kill the whole thing because of the costs involved. I do not think they, Nauvoo Restoration, Inc., would ever be willing to make those kind of changes. I think it best to get as much as we can in place in a way that does not involve structural changes and which can be done at minimal cost.
I understand your sense of urgency, Greg, but there’s always the old adage about “if it’s worth doing, it’s worth doing right.” The original hall was something on the order of temple craftsmanship—really quite opulent. Doing something less might very well cause a sense of complacency, and kill the chances of ever seeing it done properly.
“As for funding, I believe we have that part handled. We need to secure the permission of Nauvoo Restoration, Inc. to place the furnishings in the room. We are not talking about making any changes to the building itself only adding the furnishing that would have existed in it at the time.”
I am glad to hear that funding is not a problem. If this is truly the case, may I interest you in some property in Nauvoo where you can build an accurate reconstruction of the original Masonic Hall? I have a nice spot picked out. Those of us who are Masons in the area would REALLY like to see that happen. And I can give you all kinds of uses for the building when not being used for Lodge/Chapter/Council/Commandery/Consistory meetings, and no, none of them involve “Joseph and Emma” dancing.
Now, please believe me, it would be considerably easier to build anew than it would to get furniture in the old lodge. But if you are insistent on using the old building, you will find that you not only need to secure the permission of NRI, but either you or the director of NRI will also need to speak to all of the above listed departments of the Church, including and especially the First Presidency. You may be able, as Andre suggests, to do an end run and go straight to the First Presidency, but you are likely to be asked if you have gone through proper channels.
Perhaps you are not aware, but if you want to add the furnishings that would have existed in the Nauvoo Lodge in 1844-1845, you would of necessity have to make changes to the building, i.e.: removing the benches from the north and south walls so that there is both standing room and the JW’s chair can go in its proper place; putting back the wall on the West so that the SW’s chair isn’t in the middle of nowhere; taking care to make sure doors are large enough to bring in the WM chair to place in the East; and if you are going to reconstruct the WM’s chair, you really should repaint the ceiling so that the whole thing can have its proper context.
But most of all, you need to answer the question of what is the message? How does it help to spread the Gospel? If you cannot answer that, you will not get the project done.
Personally, all I can see this doing is bringing up questions that missionaries are neither comfortable with nor equipped, or even qualified, to answer, and that does not help spread the Gospel. I agree that the Church’s history with the Craft has been not only greatly neglected, but maligned. Because of this, it is not a topic that can be abandoned to novices. If you can come up with the funding, I can almost guarantee the GL would be happy to grant a dispensation for a working lodge, and I would be happy to help give tours and explain the history of a new building. But as for missionaries doing the job at the old building, that would not work. It is not their calling to tell the history of the Church. It is their calling to proclaim the Gospel and baptize.
Greg,
I wanted to thank you for the wonderful podcast/interview you did with John Dehlin on mormonstories.org. I have referred several of my friends with questions regarding mormonism and masonry to that interview.
I think having an active lodge in Nauvoo is a great idea. I see these two projects as separate however. There is more than enough lodge furnishing about for two complete rooms.
As for the mission of Nauvoo and how this promotes the Gospel it does so in several ways. First it mutes the critics who say was are hiding our history. It give both the member and non-member the fact needed when confronted by such talk.
It shows what the life of the community was like in much the same way that making bricks or candles do now.
We can provide strips to the missionaries which they can follow. For that matter the room might only be included on tours when a person asks to see it.
As it stands right now the missionaries are giving false information much of the time so we already have the problem to address.
David: Slow down there Paco. Joel and Nick’s comments werent a 1/100th as hostile as yours. In fact, I did not find much criticism in their comments at all. Does this mean any Mormon, faithful or not, who has some similar feelings are “enemies” and use “anti-mormon saws”? That, to me, is quite pompous.
David said:
It is a bit pompous to say that “LDS leaders know next to nothing about Freemasonry.” It’s just is not true. Of course Joe is always looking for a opportunity to take a swipe at the church.
Joe replies:
Hold on there, Kimosabe. Make sure you get your gun pointed in the right direction before you shoot!
In the first place, the comment that LDS church members and even leadership know next to nothing about Freemasonry was NOT my own. If you follow the thread, you wil see that I was merely quoting Greg Kearney, who to my way of thinking is more of an LDS apologist. While in this case I tend to agree with Greg — I’ve seen little indication that LDS members, leadership, or scholars are well-informed on matters regarding Masonic lore or shared Mormon-Masonic history — I’d not wish to own his words.
Secondly, I don’t consider myself an enemy of the Church. I just have this thing about inaccurate history that fries my beans. As long as the engagement is honest, then I’m all for it.
Having the discussion here on the FAIR blog makes me pause, though, as to motive. If we reconstruct the Lodge room, just to staff it with apologists, spouting out Scharffisms about the relationship between Mormonism and Freemasonry, then we’ve done ourselves –and the truth– a serious disservice.
Just because I disagree with bad apologia, doesn’t mean I’m an enemy of the Church, David.
While I consider myself an apologist, I never felt and hope I do not leave the impression that I give out some sort of over simplified explanation when presenting my thoughts on Freemasonry and the Church.
Joe, I think your somewhat knee jerk reaction to apologetics is misplaced. Not all apologetics is bad apologetics. Further I don’t think history and apologetics are somehow at odds. Good history is explained and contextualized. Good apologetics is doing this in a way folks can understand.
Heaven knows there is bad apologetics out there. I think FAIR honestly tries to produce good stuff. Yeah occasionally something bad comes along. But one wishes you’d help with good apologetics and history rather than just condemning it out of hand.
BTW – what ever happened to that book you were writing on Mormonism and Masonry back in the 90’s. Has Nick overtaken you?
Hello, Clark:
You are certainly correct that there is good, solid apologetic that presents the facts of history in an honest and helpful context, and that on the whole, FAIR makes efforts to do so. I don’t suppose I’ve any argument about that.
Besides, I thought I was pretty specific about the kind of apologia I disliked, and who had produced it. No? I’ve certainly indicated elsewhere precisely what I don’t like about it . . . as have several other knowledgable individuals.
🙂
As for my writing on Mormonism and Masonry . . . yes, I had deferred to Nick, who has been writing and speaking on this subject with some regularity. Unfortunately, the publication of his book has been a bit delayed.
I should say, though, Clark, that I’m not entirely disengaged. On March 22nd, I’ll be presenting a paper at a Masonic venue, briefly discussing “The Mystical Ascent in Egyptian, Hebrew, Christian and Masonic Traditions.” This allows for a followup piece which is likely to be of interest to Latter-day Saints.
I’ve another paper more specifically planned on Mormonism and Freemasonry, which is unique . . . not covering the same ground Nick’s book will go over. And who knows? Maybe there is still benefit in publishing a more general history of the matter, Nick’s forthcoming work notwithstanding.
🙂
Good to see you, btw.
Clark: Not all apologetics is bad apologetics.
Of course not. I didn’t say I disliked ALL apologia; I specifically stated my distaste for BAD apologia.
Besides, I’d not say my knee-jerk response was about apologetics at all. Rather, it was about being called an “enemy of the Church,” using my “same old anti-mormon saws” to sow seeds of discord rather than “building bridges.”
Frankly, THAT boils my cockles.
:-))
Joe:
You are technically correct that the sentence *Latter-days Saints [and their leaders] who know next to nothing about Freemasonry* did not originate with you, but you did incorporate it as part of your argument to further you point.
And I suspect even Sandra Tanner does not consider herself an enemy of the church. Most of the disaffected dont see themselves in that light, they are just trying to correct the church of its numerous errors. If you have problems with the church so be it, you should not pretend you dont, for those less aquatinted with you views. You are not coming from a neutral place, you are hostile to the church.
-David
David: “You are technically correct that the sentence *Latter-days Saints [and their leaders] who know next to nothing about Freemasonry* did not originate with you
Then are you suggesting that Greg Kearney is an “enemy of the Church” for saying this, or is “enemy of the Church” a special axe you have to grind with me, David?
I’m more than technically correct; I don’t own those words. Furthermore, the knowledge or lack thereof by the average Church leader or Church member regarding the subject of Mormonism and Freemasonry was not even the point of my posting.
Joe:
I dont know Greg Kearney, or his views. I dont remember seeing his name until today. So I dont know his intent, but clearly his words *know next to nothing about the subject [Masonry] and neither do their leaders.* is false. I dont know if it was just sloppy, or if he meant to disparage the church.
Joe asked: **or is *enemy of the Church* a special axe you have to grind with me…* Well the truth be known, it is a special axe I have to grind with you Joe.
I believe the landscape is littered by the spiritual bodys left in your wake. Clearly you are talented. But you use that talent take advantage of a situation such as the possible restoration of the lodge, not to be a friend to the church, and not to further a Masonic historical site, but to find an opportunity to churn the the spirit of some soft soul into mush.
Joe said: *Im a Mormon Freemason.* David Asks: Are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, that is headquartered in SLC?
-David
David, having had conversations with both Joe and Greg over the years I don’t think you have an idea what you’re talking about. No offense. But if you’re going to make strong accusations like you are you ought at least first have some basis for making them.
The issue of Masonry is a fairly complex topic. While a few GAs who have worked in academic studies of LDS history probably have some knowledge (say Oaks, for example) I’d be very surprised if many had studied the issue. I don’t think that’s a particularly negative thing to say about the brethren. I don’t think they need to know about such esoteric aspects of history to do their job.
Now of course I may well be wrong and perhaps someone like Elder Eyring has a very sophisticated knowledge. I’d be surprised.
To say someone doesn’t have some academic knowledge though is hardly attacking the church.
David: I dont know [Greg Kearney’s] intent, but clearly his words *know next to nothing about the subject [Masonry] and neither do their leaders.* is false. I dont know if it was just sloppy, or if he meant to disparage the church.
Actually, I think Greg is probably correct, and I don’t think he intended to disparage the Church or its leadership by saying so.
Dave: Joe asked: **or is *enemy of the Church* a special axe you have to grind with me…* Well the truth be known, it is a special axe I have to grind with you Joe.
Well, at least you’re honest about it, Dave! LOL. Sheesh.
Dave: I believe the landscape is littered by the spiritual bodys left in your wake.
Really, now?! So, I’m a veritable “Conan the Destroyer” on the battlefield of souls? Like that legendary figure, I suppose my own destruction of souls is a fiction, created by an active imagination!
😉
Dave: Clearly you are talented.
:-/
Dave: But you use that talent take advantage of a situation such as the possible restoration of the lodge, not to be a friend to the church, and not to further a Masonic historical site, but to find an opportunity to churn the the spirit of some soft soul into mush.
How does my opinion on this particular matter make me either friend or foe of the Church, or a “soul musher” ?!
Dave: Joe said: *Im a Mormon Freemason.*David Asks: Are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, that is headquartered in SLC?
Yes, Dave, I am. Although, I must confess, the more I interact with characters like yourself who share that same affiliation, the less and less enchanting my own membership is for me. 🙂 I’m just sayin.
David: It is accusations like yours that give us members a reputation for being un-Christlike. Thank you.
David: I could just as easily call you a Nazi:
“And I suspect even [Adolf Eichmann] did not consider himself a [Nazi]. Most [National Socialists] dont see themselves in that light, they are just [fascists] trying to [overthrow the government of the United States]. If you have problems with the [current U.S. government] so be it, you should not pretend you dont, for those less aquatinted with you views. You are not coming from a neutral place, you are hostile to the [U.S. government.”
Again, I’m just sayin.
LOL. What a stretch.
I stand by what I have said.
-David
I would like to make a few things VERY clear here.
1. I am a believing active temple attending Latter-day Saint. I am also an active Freemason. I have never found a conflict between the two.
2. I fully understand the challenges before me and FAIR in promoting this idea. It may well be that we can not, at this time, do this but I think the effort is well worth it.
3. I understand the mission of Nauvoo Restoration, Inc. is to be a missionary tool of the church. I fully support that mission and believe this project would further those aims and objectives.
4. When I said “One of the biggest issues here is that most Latter-days Saints know next to nothing about the subject and neither do their leaders.” I did not mean to inpune the member or leaders of the church. I felt I was simply stating a fact as I see it from years of dealing with the subject. Often members misstate information as can be seen by posts in this thread, Joseph being a “32nd degree mason” is but one example. It is this lack of knowledge that leads to members falling under the destructive influence of critics of the Church.
David Littlefield, do you actually have anything substantive to say on the topic of this post? I really don’t see how your comments contribute to a discussion of restoring the Nauvoo Lodge room.
Andre Mostart,
Would you please be so kind as to contact me privately, at [email protected] when you are able? I’d greatly appreciate it!
Why do you Masons care about the Nauvoo Lodge restoration? Its better for this whole thing to be dead and buried. I find nothing good in Freemasonry for the church other than it’s a footnote in Church history, another footnote that I wish could be deleted, good for nothing. The Church had its unfortunate encounter with freemasonry and has left it long behind. Members of the Church that become fascinated with freemasonry should look to the temple for their mysteries rather than Freemasonry. Its just a goofy historical relic that should stick to its own universe of charitable causes and should never rear its head in the Church again. But you delvers that become Masons are apparently wishing for some kind of glory days once again for Nauvoo where Masonry and the Church were intermingled or something. How terribly undesirable would that be?
When delvers in the church become freemasons, it leads them away from their duty and they end up losing the spirit and leaving the Church.
Now hold on here!
I’m a Latter-day Saint and a Freemason, growing up all of my bishops and stake presidents were Masons as well. I know of none of them which have left the church. I know dozens of LDS Masons at home in Maine and none of them have left the chruch. The current Grand Master of Utah is an active Latter-day Saint serving the church as a Stake President he has not left the church.
I have not left the church. And I resent the statement that “When delvers in the church become freemasons, it leads them away from their duty and they end up losing the spirit and leaving the Church.”
We seek here only to restore a room to the appearance it had in the 1840’s. Nothing more. We do not seek to intertwine the church with Freemasonry nor does Freemasonry seek the same.
If this thread can not get back to the topic at hand and can not end these needless personal attack, I as the editor of it will simple delete the whole thing.
I think it would be great to restore the Navuoo Lodge. And I am all for transparency, and full histories.
What I was objecting to was Greg’s innocent comment being used as a springboard to start criticizing the church for not knowing the history, hiding the history, and having ulterior motives (the old saws), etc. etc.
And if that is all the restoration is going to bring, use it as a cultural hall.
-David
David: What I was objecting to was Greg’s innocent comment being used as a springboard to start criticizing the church for not knowing the history, hiding the history, and having ulterior motives (the old saws), etc. etc.
No one here has done any such thing, David. Rather, I was critical of scholars/historians who misrepresent the facts of history, when they should know better. I in fact alluded not to leaders of the Church, but to a well-known apologist, whose book, Setting the Record Straight: Mormons & Masons is in my judgement horrible in most every way. This is unfortunate, since it also attempts to “build bridges,” to use your own language. It’s simply not a bridge anyone should rest their weight upon.
I also think that restoring Nauvoo Lodge is a great idea. However, I’m quite naturally suspicious when I see the discussion first appearing on a website like the FAIR blog. No offense to Brother Greg, but this makes me seriously question motives. And if such a restoration of the room leads to stacks of Scharffs’ book being distributed as a “setting of the record straight,” then I’m afraid I’m ambivalent about that. In other words, I question what use would be made of such a restoration. If it promotes bad history or inaccurate views, that would make me wince.
In case you were wondering, Dave, this is actually a counterpoint and caution to Greg’s initial remark, that such a restoration would engender discussion, and allow a gentle introduction of the topic of the shared history of Mormonism and Freemasonry. It could do that, of course. Or it could lead to a confederacy of dunces, who simply repeat every misconception of the last 100 years.
And since I’ve been here labled an “enemy of the Church” and a “slayer of souls,” let me provide the small text disclaimer: By “confederacy of dunces,” I mean no disrespect to any Church leader, living or dead, or any particular Church member, or even any particular scholar, Mormon or Masonic. Said confederacy is only one projected outcome of several possible outcomes. Your own mileage may vary; check your personal warranty for further conditions, coverage or possible exclusions. Void where prohibited by law.
I’m just sayin.
🙂
George: During the same Ezra Taft Benson also said that we should avoid the civil rights movement because it was evil. See, that is the beauty of the living Church: Church leaders can grow as well. Show a quote from President Hinkley or Monson for a better suggestion, or even better, show something from the scriptures. If you can’t do that, then agree to disagree, because the gospel allows room for both.
George: By the way, I have numerous quotations from General Authorities who say that Masonry leads people away from their duty in the Church.
I’d love to see them offlist, if you’re not unwilling to send them along, George.
George: Harold B. Lee said that Masons should be weaned off of their craft and they should leave it behind, because he doesn’t care what they were, he only cares what they should become.
Fascinating! I’m not unaware of negative remarks by some regarding Freemasonry. However, such views were not unanimous, and some were based upon misunderstandings about the nature of Freemasonry. I’m fine with that. One has to weigh such remarks on their relative merits, I think.
For instance, in the quote you mention by the late Harold B. Lee, I wonder first at the context of his remark. What brought forth his comment? Secondly, what specific aspects of the Mason’s Craft should I be weaned from? What is it that President Lee found objectionable? Was it the obligation to live a moral and upright life? Was it the Mason’s obligation to extend his charitable actions over all humanity? Was it the fostering within the Lodge of the principles of fraternity, liberty, equality and independent thought? Was it the strong Masonic hatred of tyranny that he found objectionable? Or perhaps the setting of proper priorities (i.e., first God, then family, then country)? Perhaps it was the allegorical instruction of the Lodge itself that disagreed with his sensibilities? If not these things, then precisely what?
In the end, I’m left to wonder what specific “Masonic” behaviors Harold B. Lee might have thought Latter-day Saint Freemasons might wish to abandon. Is it the once or twice a month I participate in Masonic events (Lodge meeting, the yearly strawberry feed . . .)? Is it the long passage from the Bible that I was required to memorize for one of my Masonic offices? Hmmm. Enquiring minds want to know!
In this particular case, “because he said so” isn’t likely the best answer.
🙂
Joe: And finally, I really REALLY don’t think that the majority of Mormon Freemasons are in any way inclined towards some special kind of “Mormon Mysticism.
George: That’s why I was directing my comments towards delvers who join freemasonry to delve into its mysteries, not to some guy whose LDS that joins because he’s some business dude wanting to get contacts.
Actually, George, you suggested that Freemasory was a positive evil, and that those Latter-day Saints who joined would lose the spirit and leave the Church.
I’d say that the word “delvers” saves you from using the more commmon term “seekers.” Every man comes to the door of a Lodge symbolically looking for something, and IT AIN’T BUSINESS CONTACTS, brother. This is true of Mormon and non-Mormon alike.
Hmm. This conversation has gone far afield of the Nauvoo Lodge reconstruction. It underscores why the world may not be ready for it quite yet.
🙁
I have opened this up to comments again but please restrain yourself to the topic at hand.
This is a private posting, I am the author and administrator of the same. Charges of censorship are bogus as this is not a governmental agency but a private venue and I have every right, and in fact a duty, to keep it on topic and civil.
Any further infections and I will close the postings and delete them.
Greg, I need to contact an individual who posted to this discussion, and I suspect he won’t happen across my request that he contact me. Is there a way you, as a blog administrator, can forward a message for me to the e-mail address given by that person when they posted? (Feel free to answer me by e-mail, and eliminate this posting. I would have e-mailed you directly, but I don’t have your e-mail address handy right now.)
Greg,
As a professional historian, I think your ideas for restoring the Mormon Lodge are excellent and worth pursuing. We all have a lot to learn from one another without fear of our past. I can feel your desire to strengthen others rather than tear them down. This is an important apologetics pursuit.
Oh boy, when I happened upon this blog, I thought it very interesting and informative. Let me state clearly that I am not a Mormon, but do respect your faith and find it very interesting, so much so I recently began reading the Book of Mormon given to me by a friend.
However, it was not my intention to come here and discuss issues of religion my reason was purely historical. I find the restoration talked about here fascinating, so much, I decided to read the whole blog.
Boy was I surprised when the subject of Freemasonry came up! Some of the comments and judgments leveled upon them surprise me. As a Freemason myself, I would never judge something I have no knowledge of, and certainly would not label another belief as “Cult”. I believe in brotherly love, wisdom, and charity for all.
Like I said, I happened on this site for more info on Mormonism and history, and sadly, what I found was intolerance.
Arthur,
Please don’t take the comments of one or two misguided individuals as representative of this blog, or of the LDS church. The individuals who’s posts you read are the sort of extremists who make other participants here very uncomfortable. As a Freemason and former LDS member, I have actually felt quite welcome here.
I apologize to all the Masons that I have offended.
I realize that my ideas are offensive and that I need to reconsider them, because the love for my fellow men is not to be found in these ideas.
I regret that I get hot headed and that I need to lay off these blogs.
And what is wrong with Mormon Mysticism anyways?
MormonMysticism.com
-David
As an active, Temple attending, LDS Freemason (Progress Lodge #22, F&AM of Utah) who served as a young missionary in/around Nauvoo, I would love to see the Masonic Hall properly restored. However, I agree with those who have said that this would be an unbelievably difficult mountain to climb – even to get Lodge furniture into the room. The vast gulf of misunderstanding and disinformation between LDS peoples as a whole and Freemasonry – as expressed in the Jackson posts (thanks for the apology by the way!) – will be very difficult to bridge to say the least. I agree with Greg Kearney & Joe Swick that the Church would most likely not consider it a valuable tool in accomplishing the overall mission of the Church & that of NRI.
However, Nauvoo ought to have, and historically deserves, a Lodge (there are many of us here in Utah that would love to affiliate!) and Masonic Library – a place where the overlapping histories and practices of Mormonism and Freemasonry can be openly explored. In my opinion, an accurate reproduction of the original structure somewhere other than the Flats would be a good compromise. (Pull down that ugly water tower & build it there!)
IMHO, Freemasonry and Mormonism naturally overlap and are mutually beneficial. Freemasonry profoundly influenced the cultures in Nauvoo and Pioneer Utah and most LDS don’t give the early Brethren’s association with Freemasonry the credit it deserves. Its affects are were/are felt in everything from Temple Ordinances to Priesthood organization to the Relief Society to Ward Councils. We owe much to these early pioneer Mormons/Masons and should honor them, not try to hide the innumerable contributions they made to the Church and to the Craft. A new Masonic Hall, much like the new Temple, would be a great way to remember the contributions and sacrifices of these great men.
What can I do to help get it done??
By the way, arguing that Mormon’s shouldn’t be Masons, or that Masons don’t make good Mormons, is as nonsensical as arguing that Mormons aren’t Christians. Freemasonry may not be for every Priesthood holder in the Church but many, many good LDS men, such as myself, find that it is the perfect companion to the Gospel for intellectual, social, emotional, and spiritual growth.
To David Littlefield:
I’m going to post some questions/comments on your blog under the “What Mormon Mysticism is about” part, and you can respond I suppose if you choose.
By the way, for anyone wanting to contact me further my email is [email protected]
I’m not going to be posting on here further.
Dear George:
I did respond to you here.
You should not go away mad or hurt. I suspect your views that were attacked, represent a certain segments of LDS folks. Fearing to look condescending, may I respectfully submit that you just have not come to understand a few things. And that why the discussion here may have gotten a little heated, this site and sites like it are a good place to learn these topics.
-David
George:
May I suggest that this kind of discussion can be a great learning tool. A while back Joe Swick and I mixed it up a bit on Masonry, which I think is one of the best inter-Mormonism discussions of Masonry on the web. It can be found here.
-David
Having come across your discussions on a Freemasonry related website based in Wales (that’s in Europe, just a bit west of England) may I pass a comment on what you are all saying. I am a committed Christian (a member of the Church in Wales – which is a Protestant part of the Anglican Church) and I’m a Freemason under the constitution of the United Grand Lodge of England.
From what I understand of the Mormon Religion and from what I know of Freemasonry, we are all striving to observe God’s Law according to the Bible and we are all striving to improve ourselves and others by our thoughts and actions.
So shouldn’t any action, which brings honest, decent religion and a Society which strives to improve the individual, have a value?
You obviously have a number of people who are passionate about restoring this former Masonic Room and who appear to be deeply religious, so why can’t you all see that this is an opportunity for advancement, not a reason for conflict.
For those who have suspicions about Freemasonry – open your minds to honesty. To those who are Freemasons – give information.
I will happily respond to anyone who wants to know about Freemasonry in my bit of Europe – Wales (or in our language, “Cymru”).
Chris
In one comments I said, ” I stand by what I said.” But I guess I can’t do that since my comments are being selectively removed.
-David
Greg, I can’t tell you how much I’m in agreement with your idea. With information age, any member or nonmember, with a single google search, is exposed to vast ideas from a wide variety of sources. Those sources have differing agendas, but they are all available.
Within the church, new converts and youth, along with more seasoned members, are now being bombarded with historical church information that raises questions that must be answered. We can no longer afford to brush them off with a “that’s not important to your salvation, son” answer. We must have solid explanations and not attempt to deflect the questions because we do not have those answers.
Masonry is one of those issues that needs to be clearly discussed and answered.
Someone asked, in essense, what would be purpose of such an undertaking, i.e. would it help the mission of the church moving forward. YES! Falsehood and myths, when left to fester, eat at growing testamonies and tear them down. (This will grow only more difficult if Dan Brown’s new book does, indeed, include the Church and Masonry as rumored.)
We have nothing to hide or fear about better understanding the role the Nauvoo Lodge played in the temple ceremony. But, it must be explained well. The first step would be to restore the 3rd floor.
Brilliant idea.
David Reed: However, Nauvoo ought to have, and historically deserves, a Lodge (there are many of us here in Utah that would love to affiliate!) and Masonic Library – a place where the overlapping histories and practices of Mormonism and Freemasonry can be openly explored.
Absolutely. I would immediately affiliate with Nauvoo Lodge, even if it were an occasional/specialty Lodge or a research body.
“And the truth shall make you free.” Enough said, just tell the truth and avoid Boyd K. Packer’s philosphy: ‘The trouble with you historians is you want to tell the truth. We don’t want the truth, we want testimony building experiences.’ And so the legacy of the Liar Paul Dunn. Tell it the way it was and don’t sugar coat it.
Masonry is one of those issues that needs to be clearly discussed and answered.
No kidding. Someone ought to write a book that sets forth the evidence and context, rather than repeating some of the goofy stories which have circulated for 100+ years.
There is a subtext to all of this discussion, a subtext that should be addressed, both because (as I think) it actually underlies a lot of the discussion found in this thread, and because it is an important subject to address on an LDS apologetic website. The subtext is this: What is the actual relationship of the LDS temple ceremonies and Masonic ritual?
This question is important for several reasons:
1. First, a significant amount of both anti-Mormon and anti-Masonic literature is based on a lack of understanding and a willingness to misrepresent the truth about these two groups and the relationship between them. It is in the interests of both the LDS and the Masons to address this issue directly.
2. Second, not only is this issue not going away, it is going to get a great deal more attention—and very soon, too. Dan Brown, the author of The Da Vinci Code, has publicly stated that his next novel will focus on the Freemasons. Whenever attention is focused on the Freemasons, attention is also given to the supposed Mormon-Mason connection. In addition, several authors have speculated that Brown’s book will explicitly focus on this connection; if this speculation is true, then there is all the more reason for both Mormon and Masonic thinkers to get ahead of the curve, as it were, and have responses for the curious public (who will be hearing plenty from the adversarial evangelical community). I expect this book to be in stores within the next year, possibly as soon as Christmas 2008.
Nick Literski wrote, regarding the relationship between Masonry and Mormonism: “Someone ought to write a book that sets forth the evidence and context, rather than repeating some of the goofy stories which have circulated for 100+ years.” I am in the middle of writing that book; my agent in New York is preparing to represent it to publishers. (My thoughts were recently summarized in a comment I submitted to Chris Hodapp’s “Freemasons for Dummies” blog, in response to his posting about the discussion of the Nauvoo Lodge restoration on this website.) However, we—by which I mean Latter-day Saints and Masons—need many thinkers taking historically based and well-considered positions on these issues. I respectfully suggest that some thread on the FAIR blog be devoted to this issue.
Disclosure: I am both a temple-attending Latter-day Saint and an active Freemason. (For those on this thread for whom this statement is not enough: yes, I mean ‘LDS’ as in ‘the church headquartered across the street from Temple Square in Salt Lake’; I have served in two bishoprics and on a high council, and currently teach the Gospel Doctrine class in Sunday School; I have published in Sunstone and Dialogue. In addition, yes, I mean ‘Freemason’ as in ‘of a regular lodge chartered by a Grand Lodge F&AM’; I serve as Marshal in my local lodge and JW in my Templar Commandery; I was published this past year in The Scottish Rite Journal.)
Actually, Mark, I was being good-naturedly sarcastic. I’ve been working on a history of Freemasonry and Mormonism for the past four years.
Nick, pardon me. I knew of your project, but thought from your words here that you had put it to the side. It is sometimes difficult to detect sarcasm–good natured or otherwise–in a blog, without the intonations of voice and body language to go by.
Keep writing.
However, we—by which I mean Latter-day Saints and Masons—need many thinkers taking historically based and well-considered positions on these issues. I respectfully suggest that some thread on the FAIR blog be devoted to this issue.
Part of the trouble, Mark, is that we can count on one hand the people who are actually qualified to do this. It’s not just a matter of having a solid background in both Mormonism and Freemasonry. It’s a matter of having a solid background in the esoterica of each. It’s a matter of re-examing the original historical sources (which I’ve done first-hand) and finding the plethora of misquotes and/or “facts” taken out of context on both sides. It’s a matter of travelling throughout the country (which I’ve done), finding original records which have never been examined by scholars, let alone published.
I’m “electronically acquainted” with Chris Holdapp, and while his book is a very nice introduction to the Fraternity for non-Masons, it is not a scholarly treatment, and does not represent an example of how to adequately discuss the relationship between Mormonism and Freemasonry (the real relationship, not the strange rants postumously published in the name of Anthony Ivins, under that title).
It is sometimes difficult to detect sarcasm–good natured or otherwise–in a blog, without the intonations of voice and body language to go by.
So very true! That gets me in trouble sometimes! Heh…
I think the idea of a Nauvoo Masonic Lodge of Research is a fine one and I wonder why no one has ever thought of it until now. If ever there was a case of a need for a research lodge this would be it.
I look forward to reading all of these books that are being done so far the offering have been on the “light” side of reading.
I think the idea of a Nauvoo Masonic Lodge of Research is a fine one and I wonder why no one has ever thought of it until now. If ever there was a case of a need for a research lodge this would be it.
Joe Swick, Joseph Johnstun, and I discussed this idea at length before circumstances led to my moving away from Nauvoo. It would be a wonderful thing, and in many ways, more of a tribute to the early Mormon Masons than any attempt to “restore” the Lodge Room would be.
While I still like the idea of restoring the lodge room a lodge of research would require no external permission and could be done, it would seem, quickly.
In the spirit of “it is sometimes difficult to detect,” I see that my above comment about individuals prepared to adequately address the relationship between Freemasonry and Mormonism could be taken wrongly. It was not intended as a criticism of anyone currently participating in this dicussion.
At the most, it is a fair criticism of the recent Gilbert Scharffs title, unfortunately mistitled Mormons & Masons: Setting the Record Straight.
Greg, so far as I understand it, forming a “research lodge” does, in fact, require permission from the governing grand lodge, in this case, the Grand Lodge of Illinois. Mind you, I doubt there would be any serious difficulty in getting permission from the Grand Lodge of Illinois for such a project. The only issue that could arise is the fact that a broader “research lodge” already exists in Illinois, under the auspices of the grand lodge.
I suppose one could create a “virtual lodge of research” which would exist outside any established masonic jurisdiction, but I think that would limit certain opportunities. I think it’s also very important that we try to avoid any circumstance which could raise the ire of any participant’s respective grand lodge.
I didn’t mean to suggest that we go outside the Grand Lodge of Illinois on this. I just assumed that getting a research lodge charter from them would not be a problem. I will offer space on my server to host information on this and will have a temporary URL for it in a moment.
Nick: Joe Swick, Joseph Johnstun, and I discussed [a Nauvoo research lodge] at length before circumstances led to my moving away from Nauvoo. It would be a wonderful thing, and in many ways, more of a tribute to the early Mormon Masons than any attempt to “restore” the Lodge Room would be.
Indeed we did discuss this in some detail. The precise shape of it was a matter of some consideration. For example, it could be an invitational, active research body, with membership limited to those prepared to research, publish or present. I belong to one or two Masonic bodies of this sort.
🙂
Now that the little bird has whispered in the ear, I wonder how long it will take to realize this worthy idea.
Greg: “While I still like the idea of restoring the lodge room a lodge of research would require no external permission and could be done, it would seem, quickly.”
Well, no external permission outside of the Grand Lodge of Illinois.
🙂
The only “slow” part of it would be the initial body of research / presentations, which would be a draw or attraction for additional members. This Lodge should be prepared to make available the very best scholarship on the subject of Mormonism and Masonry, past and present.
Of course, another similar possibility is to do some remodeling of the Utah Lodge of Research, which is currently in the doldrums. I’m certain its present Master would love that kind of support.
Again, my concern is that this conversation is occuring on the FAIR website is troubling to me. It isn’t lost on me that in the case of the Nauvoo Lodge room restoration, and in the case of a Mormon-Masonic research organization, the opportunity to cheapen these to a propaganda move by a group like FAIR is possible. This makes me exceedingly uncomfortable.
And while I understand your recent need to close down and “censor” recent posts in this particular venue, it is also not lost on me that propaganda and censorship can be dangerous bedfellows.
Greg, please inform me of your URL when you have it available. My e-mail address is [email protected]
David Littlefield Says: A while back Joe Swick and I mixed it up a bit on Masonry, which I think is one of the best inter-Mormonism discussions of Masonry on the web. It can be found here.
I would mention that I’ll be significantly expanding on my remarks at the above link in a presentation I’ll be making on the 22nd of this month before a Masonic research body here in Washington State. Once I’ve done so, I’ll be happy to share that discussion with others who may be interested. In fact, if my remarks are solid enough, they may actually be published in the transactions of this research body.
This lays the groundwork for a much-needed discussion on ascent themes in Freemasonry as they relate to Mormonism. A second lecture by me on this precise topic is already in the works, so to speak, and I trust it will act as a much-needed corrective to the apologetic excesses (!) and misses of certain other well-known speakers on the subject.
My very next bit will be on a subject which I promise will be a positive historical delight to some and an absolute theological shock and dread to others. I don’t know why I’ve waited so long to publish it, but Nick is currently flogging me for not finishing this long-overdue piece of research before his book is ready, and I suppose the time is now. This piece is also already well underway, and I’m absolutely excited about it. Learning from past errors, I wouldn’t comment on this if the thing weren’t actually relatively close to completion.
Nick, Brent, Don, Kerry and others who have heard the particulars are likely breathing out “it’s about dingdang time, Joe!”
Actually, that sounds most like Kerry.
🙂
What’s the possibility of the Grand Lodge of Illinois granting the charter of a “virtual” Lodge of Research/Instruction?
Well, the virtual world isn’t in any existing grand lodge jurisdiction, David, so I don’t see how they could grant a dispensation or charter of any kind. 🙂
Nick Literski: the virtual world isn’t in any existing grand lodge jurisdiction, David, so I don’t see how they could grant a dispensation or charter of any kind.
The precedent for this is Internet Lodge, which operates under the aegis of the United Grand Lodge of England. Here is the link:
http://internet.lodge.org.uk/
Frats,
JS
* Wouldn’t a “virtual” lodge of any sort continue to foster a spirit of exclusion?
* Shouldn’t there be some sort of open, accessible Masonic presence IN Nauvoo – for historical reasons, if nothing else?
Well, Brethren, what do you wish me to do? Over the years, Nick and I have oft spoken of building a duplicate of the original Masonic Hall in Nauvoo, and there are some very nice properties available. Anyone wishing to look through some, you can check
http://nauvoorealestate.com/
If we could come up with $1.7 million, we could purchase Hyrum (Hiram) Smith’s old farm. How poetic would THAT be! It is at the east end of Nauvoo, and includes 29 acres and a hot tub. For those who are looking, it is the first property listed under the “Nauvoo Area” listings.
If you want to go virtual, I bought ldsmasons.com several years ago, but have done nothing with it.
For a lodge of research, I have spoken with a publisher in Massachusetts, and they are very interested in reprinting all of the old Masonic classics, and have asked if I would be willing to send them my small collection to get them started. Any other brethren or collectors who have them, you can contact me off list, and I will get you their contact information if you would like to participate in this project.
S&F,
Joseph
I see from the Grand Lodge website that there are Lodges in Carthage & La Harpe. How many Masons could actually be said to live in/near Nauvoo?
For what it’s worth, here’s my (somewhat sleep deprived) suggestion for a logical approach to this issue:
1. Create a dedicated online Mormon/Mason apologetic group so that we can continue to explore & debate the historicity of this issue. This should be open to all and be held to a high academic standard. LDSMason.com would be a great starting platform if Joseph is offering it. I would be happy to throw money at it if necessary.
2. For those of us who are, or may be interested in becoming, Freemasons, we should explore, with the input and counsel of the Grand Lodge of Illinois, the possibility of chartering a Lodge of Research — and hopefully somewhere down the road an “occasional” Lodge — both of which would physically meet in Nauvoo at least annually. If we could gain enough support from LDS & non-LDS Masons in Hancock County (& elsewhere) maybe then we could come up with a plan for a historical reproduction of Nauvoo’s original Lodge room, if not the entire original Masonic building.
If we do pursue the establishment of a Lodge & possibly re-creating a Lodge Room, it would be a good idea to create a non-profit “Nauvoo Masonic Association” as soon a possible to act as an independent fund raising and property management entity.
The one thing, I think, that we do not want to do is to once again alienate the Freemasons of Illinois in our efforts to understand the Mormon/Masonic experience of 1840’s Nauvoo. We must work with them and help them, whenever possible, to promote the Craft in the Nauvoo & Illinois of today.
Also, we must not exclude those only interested in Masonic history as it relates to the LDS Nauvoo period and are not interested in pursuing the Craft itself.
That’s my suggestion. It would give us a place to start, something for all to build upon and a clear idea of where we would like to go.
B&F,
DWReed
1. Create a dedicated online Mormon/Mason apologetic group so that we can continue to explore & debate the historicity of this issue.
Why do you suggest an “apologetic” group? This would suggest that only those who wish to defend the LDS church against perceived “attacks” are welcome to participate. I can guarantee you that some of the real experts on these issues have no interest in producing LDS apologetics.
This should be open to all and be held to a high academic standard.
In all honesty, this tends to be at odds with the goal of “an apologetics group.” If your goal is to produce LDS apologetics, then conclusions from research will be skewed/spun to support an author’s interpretation of what makes the LDS church look best. That’s hardly a way to research real history.
My own research has found issues which reflect well on both the LDS church and on the Fraternity. It has also found issues which reflect poorly on both the LDS church and on the Fraternity. I try to be as objective as possible, and follow the evidence, rather than making the evidence conform to presupposed agendas.
Also, we must not exclude those only interested in Masonic history as it relates to the LDS Nauvoo period and are not interested in pursuing the Craft itself.
If you feel this way, then I suggest you apply the same reasoning, in order to not exclude those who are not interested in pursuing the LDS church itself.
Why do you suggest an “apologetic” group? This would suggest that only those who wish to defend the LDS church against perceived “attacks” are welcome to participate. I can guarantee you that some of the real experts on these issues have no interest in producing LDS apologetics.
Semantics, semantics. Maybe “apologetic” was the wrong term. I argue only for open, honest exploration and discussion. I am certain that there are many “real experts” out there that have no interest other than discovery and documentation of actual history – where ever it leads. That is all I wish to promote.
As for the second quote attributed to me in your post, please add “And visa-versa” to the end.
DWReed
Maybe “apologetic” was the wrong term. I argue only for open, honest exploration and discussion. I am certain that there are many “real experts” out there that have no interest other than discovery and documentation of actual history – where ever it leads. That is all I wish to promote.
Glad to hear it, David. Thanks for the clarification!
A belated correction: I’ve never served as a Stake President.
Glen Cook
A Mormon Mason: New grand master is the first in a century who is LDS