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FAIR Conference Podcast #75 – John Gee, “Lessons on Doing Apologetics”

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This podcast series features past FAIR Conference presentations. This presentation is from our 2021 conference held in August. If you would like to watch all the presentations from the conference, you can still purchase the video streaming.

John Gee, Lessons on Doing Apologetics

John Gee’s books are for sale in the FAIR bookstore.

John Gee is the William (Bill) Gay Research Professor in the Department of Asian and Near Eastern Languages at Brigham Young University. He has authored more than 150 publications on topics such as ancient scripture, Aramaic, archaeology, Coptic, Egyptian, history, linguistics, Luwian, rhetoric, Sumerian, textual criticism, and published in journals such as British Museum Studies in Ancient Egypt and Sudan, Bulletin of the Egyptological Seminar, Enchoria, Ensign, FARMS Review, Göttinger Miszellen, Issues in Religion and Psychotherapy, Journal of Academic Perspecitves, Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt, Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Journal of Egyptian History, Journal of the Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities, Lingua Aegyptia, Review of Books on the Book of Mormon, Studien zur altägyptischen Kultur, and Interpreter, and by such presses as American University of Cairo Press, Archaeopress, Association Égyptologique Reine Élisabeth, E. J. Brill, Carsten Niebuhr Institute of Near Eastern Studies, Czech Institute of Egyptology, Deseret Book, de Gruyter, Harrassowitz, Institut Français d’Archéologie Orientale, Macmillan, Oxford University Press, Peeters, Praeger, Religious Studies Center, and Society of Biblical Literature. He has published three books and has edited eight books and an international multilingual peer-reviewed professional journal. He served twice as a section chair for the Society of Biblical Literature.

The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 41

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Part 41: CES Letter Testimony/Spiritual Witness Questions [Section E]

By Sarah Allen

 

There’s a lot of ground to cover today, and it appears the next few questions/concerns are again about discernment. This is ground we already covered during the Prophets section, but we’ll be going over it again in more detail here.

The CES Letter picks up with question/point #6:

  1. Paul H. Dunn: Dunn was a General Authority of the Church for many years. He was a very popular speaker who told powerful, faith-promoting war and baseball stories. Many times Dunn shared these stories in the presence of prophets, apostles, and seventies. Stories such as how God protected him as enemy machine-gun bullets ripped away his clothing, gear, and helmet without ever touching his skin and how he was preserved by the Lord. Members of the Church shared how they strongly felt the Spirit as they listened to Dunn’s testimony and stories.

 Unfortunately, Dunn was later caught lying about his war and baseball stories and was forced to apologize to the members. He became the first General Authority to gain “emeritus” status and was removed from public church life.

It’s ironic that Jeremy is calling Paul Dunn out for inaccuracy and exaggeration when he does the same thing repeatedly throughout this Letter—including in these very paragraphs. Some of Dunn’s stories were exaggerated, yes. Not all of them were, but a fair number certainly were and it was rightfully a scandal when it was exposed. [Read more…] about The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 41

The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 40

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Part 40: CES Letter Testimony/Spiritual Witness Questions [Section D]

By Sarah Allen

 

The topic we’re going to cover today is one that I’m passionate about, and that’s personal study: study of the scriptures, study of Church history, study of the prophets, and study of the Gospel. Many if not all of the prophets of the Restoration have encouraged us to do our own studying in addition to the lessons we receive in Sunday School, Seminary, or Institute.

At church the goal is to learn the doctrine. Some history gets thrown in, particularly when we’re talking about the Doctrine and Covenants, but for the most part that isn’t the focus of our lessons. That’s something we’re meant to study on our own time. We’ll skim through the scripture verses we were meant to read that week, and we’ll go over some words of modern prophets that align with those scripture verses, but we don’t really dive in very deeply to most of the topics we cover each year because there are just so many. Many teachers only have time to hit the most important points and skim over the rest. [Read more…] about The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 40

The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 39

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Part 39: CES Letter Testimony/Spiritual Witness Questions [Section C]

by Sarah Allen

 

When you look over this section of the CES Letter, one of the most common threads is arrogance. Jeremy talks about it, ironically saying how arrogant it is to deny the spiritual experiences of others while simultaneously denying that anyone’s spiritual experiences mean anything at all. He also makes broad generalizations about the hearts and minds of the members of the Church, and then attacks the arrogance his own straw man superimposed on those hearts and minds.

More than that, though, this section of the Letter is permeated with its own kind of arrogance. Brushing off the valid, physical experiences of millions of people as unreliable and unimportant is arrogant. Twisting the words of Apostles of the Lord into pretzels in order to imply they said something they didn’t is arrogant. Questioning the purpose and methods of a member of the Godhead, then declaring God Himself as being inefficient, takes an astounding amount of arrogance. In fact, I don’t think it’s even possible to have more arrogance than to believe that you know better than God does.

That kind of pride can be corrosive. If unchecked, it erodes your ability to feel the Spirit to the point where you can’t feel it anymore. It warps your mind and leads you to make terrible decisions. And all the while, you feel as though you’re the one who’s in the right. Everyone else needs you to rescue them. That’s the face he puts on the CES Letter, one of trying to save others from the Church. And in this section, Jeremy’s trying to “rescue” you from God’s way of communicating with His children. He’s trying to “save” you from returning home to live with God.

Please stand strong against his urgings. Remember, it’s not the Holy Ghost telling you not to pray and to turn away from God.

[Read more…] about The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 39

The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 38

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Part 38: CES Letter Testimony/Spiritual Witness Questions [Section B]

by Sarah Allen

 

Last week, I spoke about the progression of ideas I see in the CES Letter and how dangerous I think this section is. Jeremy Runnells isn’t just targeting other flawed human beings or messy historical events without much documentation this time. He’s not talking about controversial statements or doctrines, either. He’s directly targeting a member of the Godhead and the way in which our Father and Savior speak to us. If he can cast doubt on that, if he can make you think that They don’t speak to us the way we’re taught They do, then the easier it becomes for him to convince you that They don’t exist at all.

I truly believe that’s at the crux of this. There’s a reason why some former members of our church don’t join another church when they leave and instead become atheist or agnostic. Things in our church are often presented as all or nothing. Last week, we went through several scriptures that taught that we can either choose the things of God or the things of Satan. Either our temple covenants are necessary for exaltation or they’re not. Either the Priesthood was restored to the Earth or it wasn’t. Either Joseph Smith knelt in a grove of trees, saw God the Father and the Savior, and later spoke with a resurrected Moroni face to face, or he didn’t. Either the story he told us surrounding the coming forth of the Book of Mormon is true, or he’s a liar. Either the Book of Mormon is a genuine ancient record translated by revelation, or it’s made up. There’s no in-between. Even the Savior Himself told us that if we’re not with Him, we’re against Him.

While that concept isn’t true for our testimonies (it’s normal if we don’t have perfect faith in everything right away, or if we have to build our testimonies brick by brick), it’s true for a lot of things in the Gospel and in the Church. And if Jeremy can make you doubt enough of those very basic, fundamental cornerstones of your faith, eventually, he’ll make you doubt whether God is even real.

But God is real. The Savior is real. The Holy Ghost is real. And the way that They speak to us is through the Spirit. Regardless of whatever doubts Jeremy tries to sow, we are not alone. They did not abandon us to find our own way without Their help. We just have to ask for it.

[Read more…] about The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 38

The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 37

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Part 37: CES Letter Testimony/Spiritual Witness Questions [Section A]

by Sarah Allen

 

Entries in this series (this link does not work properly in old Reddit or 3rd-party apps): https://www.reddit.com/r/lds/collection/11be9581-6e2e-4837-9ed4-30f5e37782b2

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While the CES Letter has jumped around a bit in terms of topics, the progression of ideas has been interesting to see. First, it went after the Book of Mormon, the First Vision, and Joseph Smith. Then, it went after Brigham Young and prophets in general. Now, it’s going after the Spirit and personal revelation. It’s directly targeting a member of the Godhead. It’s trying to systematically knock down all of the basic pillars of a testimony so there’ll be nothing left to hold it up by the end. The entire purpose of the Letter is to attack that firm foundation your testimony should be built on so that it can’t continue to stand.

Many of us grew up, or have kids who are growing up, singing “The Wise Man and the Foolish Man” in Primary. It’s based on the parable given by the Savior in Matthew 7:24-27, which teaches us that the wise man builds his house (or testimony) upon a rock, while the foolish man builds his house/testimony upon sand, which will wash away in a storm. The CES Letter works very hard to try to flip the script, saying that only foolish people will base their testimonies on sandy concepts like “feelings” and “revelation” instead of rock-solid concepts like “science” and “common sense.”

But there is nothing foolish about listening to the Spirit, and putting your faith in the knowledge of man rather than the wisdom of God will never lead you in the right direction.

I have to admit, this topic is a little harder to discuss than some of the others have been simply because it’s a more nebulous concept. We aren’t talking about historical facts, figures, and documents this time around. We’re talking about the Spirit, something more amorphous but equally as real as historical documents are. As such, I hope you guys will forgive me if this section is maybe a little clumsy compared to some of the others. Our sources on this section are going to be far more scripture- and talk-oriented rather than scholarly research, too. I’m looking forward to that because they’re the best sources to lean on, anyway.

[Read more…] about The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 37

The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 36

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Part 36: CES Letter Kinderhook Plates/Translation Claims Questions

by Sarah Allen

 

The Kinderhook Plates and Joseph’s attempt at translating them is something that the critics love to bring up, but when they do, they’re banking on you not knowing what really happened. Once you do understand the actual circumstances, you’re more likely to shrug and move on than you are to lose your testimony. Not only was this event inconsequential to the history of the Church, but it doesn’t even crack the top ten of supposedly controversial things Joseph said or did.

Right off the bat, Jeremy frames this dishonestly, and he either hasn’t read yet another of his own sources or he’s deliberately hiding what it says. He might link to his sources, but I’m pretty sure he’s hoping you’ll be too lazy to read them for yourselves. I’m going to go through the quotes he uses to open this section, and then I’ll talk about what really happened with the Kinderhook Plates.

He begins this section with this quote:

“I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook … I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his Kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth.” — JOSEPH SMITH, JR., HISTORY OF THE CHURCH, VOL. 5, CHAPTER 19, P.372

The History of the Church was originally compiled by Joseph’s scribes, secretaries, and friends as The History of Joseph Smith after his death, and then later edited and expanded by B.H. Roberts into a 7-volume series. This quote is taken from volume 5 of Roberts’s series, as Jeremy mentions.

However, what Jeremy gets wrong is that this quote was not given by Joseph Smith. Back in the 19th Century when these were compiled, it was relatively common while writing biographies for things originally in the third person to be changed to the first person as if the subject actually said them when they did not. This quote was originally written by William Clayton, one of Joseph’s scribes, and was taken from his personal journal entry for May 1, 1843. Where it says, “I have translated a portion of them,” the actual quote was, “Prest J. has translated a portion.”

[Read more…] about The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 36

The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 35

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Part 35: CES Letter Prophet Questions [Section I]

by Sarah Allen

 

Jeremy’s sneering contempt for the idea of ongoing revelation and modern-day prophets is, I believe, quite telling. Later in the CES Letter, he uses the same method to cast doubt on the idea of personal revelation as well. It speaks to his mindset the same way his sarcastic rebuttals do to anyone who attempts to respond to his concerns. If he was truly seeking answers to questions that were disturbing him to such a great degree, as he consistently claims, you’d think he’d welcome a response rather than lash out with childish insults and playground taunts. And yet, responses containing answers only seem to enrage him.

If we’re speaking about someone’s “modus operandi,” to use one of his favorite terms, Jeremy’s is to treat the things of God and those who try to uphold them with open disdain. There are no genuine questions here. He’s shown clearly that he is not sincerely seeking answers, but rather, actively seeking to destroy the faith of others. He’s like Amalikiah, poisoning people with his venom by degrees until their testimonies wither and die. It’s tragic, and I can only pray that someday, he has his “Alma the Younger moment” and realizes what he’s done before it’s too late. [Read more…] about The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 35

The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 34

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Part 34: CES Letter Prophet Questions [Section H]

by Sarah Allen

 

I am what some people on the internet commonly refer to as a “basic white girl.” Most of my preferences are mainstream and wholly unoriginal. I like Converse and Vans, the color pink, s’mores, steel water bottles, canvas messenger bags, Friends, unicorns, Harry Potter, murder mysteries, Funko Pops, Apple products, baking shows, fun nail art, and playing with makeup. I like wearing leggings and yoga pants, because at a certain point you stop caring so much about looking cute and just want to be comfortable. Even though I normally prefer listening to various subgenres of rock music, I still love boybands and other cheesy pop music. I like Fall, Halloween, pumpkin spice flavoring, and wearing sweaters and flannel shirts. And, most importantly for this week’s post, I love true crime.

I’ve loved it since well before it was popular, back when reading about serial killers and kidnapped kids as a hobby was considered strange for some reason. I said a few weeks ago how much I like stories, and that’s why I like history so much, because it’s just a giant collection of stories woven together. That’s the same reason I like true crime: because of the stories. As a storyteller myself, I’ve always found what human beings are capable of doing to one another far scarier and more interesting than any supernatural danger could ever be. True crime focuses heavily on those different stories and the real people involved in them, and to me, it’s fascinating and heartbreaking in equal measure. [Read more…] about The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 34

The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 33

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Part 33: CES Letter Prophet Questions [Section G]

by Sarah Allen

 

We’re finally approaching the end of the Prophet Questions and Concerns section of the CES Letter. Next week, we’ll discuss the Mark Hofmann forgeries, at which point we’ll have finally hit the halfway point of the Letter as far as page count goes. As far as actual content goes, I think we’re already there. Hopefully, the week after Hofmann, we’ll dive into the Kinderhook plates and the upcoming revisit of the Book of Abraham.

Last week, we finished with the revelation in the temple giving the Priesthood to all worthy men, regardless of race or lineage. The things those men in that room experienced were incredible. Some of them described it as being like the day of Pentacost, with the rushing wind and cloven tongues of fire surrounding them. Interestingly, President Hinckley said there was no rushing wind or cloven tongues of fire, directly contradicting the exact words of Elder Perry and Elder McConkie, so it seems that their experiences were different but equally powerful. Elder McConkie seemingly confirmed that some of them saw divine figures there with them, though he refused to share any of the details. It was such a sacred event that some of the men there that day refused to discuss it at all, other than to say that it’d been the most spiritual experience of their lives. [Read more…] about The CES Letter Rebuttal — Part 33